San francisco garters?

[PINJOHN]

I still think that this is how some snakes get into Europe. (illegally collected and brought into Canada) All this B.S. about them all being decended from legally acquired animals years ago is well... B.S.[/QUOTE]

i don't recall the details fully but i know that a breeding project for San Frans was set up with the Gerald Durrell wildlife conservation trust, a world renowned zoo set up for the protection of endanged animals and plants through breeding programs, in the British channel Isle's Jersey zoo, it's my understanding that this is the source of the European stock and while it cant be ruled out that wild caught may have been smuggled into Europe, i would think that the inbred state of European San Frans argues against this being a regular occurrence,
my computer skills being somewhat sparse it would be a lot faster for your self to follow this lead and find out more on their origins in Europe

[infernalis]

Each year the breeders I know of have produced quite a few genetic defects like 2 heads & missing jaws...

sure sounds like that "fresh blood" Richard is so certain of is only finding it's way into fantasy stock not being offered for sale except in exclusive circles of smugglers and poachers who wish to keep them all to themselves.

Thamnophis is still a very narrow niche' market. No smuggler/poacher in his or her right mind is going to poach any federally protected animals without someone to sell them to.

Virtually all of the US breeders who deal in legal snakes have to work to sell them all, so now I ask this.. would you take such a high risk with such low chance of returns?? doubt it.

the interest is not strong enough to warrant such a gamble.

[ConcinusMan]

Perhaps. I hope you're right.

[Spankenstyne]

I just found an article/interview with Dr Blais from the OHS news Dec 2000, where it's noted that he was in fact selling his pairs of babies for $1600 (my memory was a bit off haha), which at the time is said to have been on par with the European price.

A quote regarding the origins of the Euro stock:

"The original animals that were acquired by the Jersey Zoo in England were acquired with the fully legal nod from the U.S. Department of the Interior and USF&W, but none have been since, and that was only three animals. So it’s an unfortunate situation that the present European gene pool most probably owes more to illegal poaching than to the original founding stock from the zoo, which makes for a big gray area, legally speaking. "

From The San Francisco Garter Snake in Canada - gartersnake.info

It's not just something Richard came up with, it's a fairly widely held belief.

[Spankenstyne]

Another writeup on the grey areas & secrecy surrounding the Euro population back in 98 even:

The actual European population

The actual number of specimens of Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia in Europe is not so easy to find out. Some people seem to transfer the difficult situation resulting from the overprotection in the USA to Europe. In fact a few number of keepers of the San Francisco Garter Snake do not cooperate. They maintain a strict silence about all themes concerning these special snakes. When asked about details of keeping conditions, breeding success or other points of interest they refuse to give any information about the animals kept. So what we only can give is the number of animals which we know for sure. The real number of San Francisco Garter Snakes in Europe can only be estimated.

But on the other hand we do have a lot of personal contacts to breeders of the San Francisco Garter Snake and we think that we can estimate the actual situation sufficiently. Table 1 shows the number of specimens of Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia we know in Europe. The total amount is about 90 animals. Poland (40), Germany (23), the Netherlands (15), Austria (4-5) and Switzerland (3) are the countries with the most exact data. It is known that there exist some San Francisco Garter Snakes in England but we don't have any actual information about these specimens. The total number of snakes of this subspecies of Thamnophis sirtalis in Europe we estimate to about 130-140 specimens in maximum.

14 of the specimens mentioned above are kept by members of the EUROPEAN GARTER SNAKE ASSOCIATION (ZERNECKE, 1997). At the moment there are 3 zoos in Europe, that keep Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia: The Diergaarde Rotterdam (Netherlands), the Zoo in Lodz (Poland) and the Zoo in Munster (Germany). The breeding group of the Zoo in Jersey (England) was recently sold to an English breeder about whom we unfortunately know nothing.


From a translated article on this very site: San Francisco Garter Snake : Thamnophis.com

[ConcinusMan]

Well there you go, why all the secrecy? makes you wonder.

[zooplan]

Both sources metioned above are very, very, very old!
Probably five generations in Garter Snake breeding.

The estimated European population is now anything between one and some thousands.

The price for Thamnophis sirtalis tetrateania is down at 60 to 120 Euros per juvenile snake, depending to its´pedigree and reputaion of the breeder.

There are no more secrets about the maintenance of San Francisco Garter Snakes (or very few)

Would you risk, what you´d have to, for maybe dubbling those prices for maybe one season?

I believe that threatening by illegal collection is a farytail to hide the dimension of threatening by commercial and private land use.

Sharp Park Golf Course is just a medium serious example!

[Spankenstyne]

Yep it seem silly to try now, at least for monetary reasons. Wasn't so silly 10 or so years ago though & not a stretch to think as very possible then, which would mean that a number of the current population is from those lines. Not saying I have any proof or anything but just pointing out that it's been a belief held by more than a few people. Folks refusing to speak about it certainly doesn't help change those beliefs.

[PINJOHN]

It would be interesting to know how members see the future of the san fran,do you for instance foresee the developers winning and leaving no place for these stunning snakes? do you hold the view that your wildlife services could care less about the san frans future and might be turning a blind eye to threats to the snakes,
the perverse situation is that here in Europe we are allowed to keep them but not so in the USA, the sting in the tale of course is they are now so inbred that the European stock are in as much trouble as their American kin.
some months ago i posed a hypothetical question about strengthening the European stock with out crosses, using a recessive eastern like a melanistic which brought a number of objections, i stress that this was hypothetical and remains so,
the Resurrection of this thread has started me thinking and has decided me to put forward my arguments for the crossing, i start by stating that i remain as much a purist when it comes to garters as everybody else on the site, i have never had any desire to see a puget crossed with a checkerd or any other abomination, just to see what you get, but i would like to see the big European breeders with a knowledge of genetics take on the task of reinvigorating the san fran gene pool, this snake for me is the most beautiful snake in the world and should be given every chance to go on sharing our planet alongside us, the situation is unique in that the European stock will not come into contact with the original American stock [what would be the point of smuggling the snakes INTO the USA] the future owners of the snakes would know of their gene strengthened history, for me its a win win situation we get to keep this wonderful snake in the healthy state to which its entitled and the progression towards its extinction in Europe is halted.
i dont believe for a minute that i have covered every argument or even many of them, i hope that my comments can stimulate arguments for and against and i expect to hear points that have just not occurred to me, but if your argument comes down to" i would rather they just died out" then that's a view i will never share.

[infernalis]

In theory it would make more sense to use Infernalis stock since that species is so nearly identical and from the same area??