Millinex's garters that cross my hands.

[d_virginiana]

Before I say anything about the enclosure thing: Regardless, you seem to take care of your snakes, so I'm sure she's in a far better situation than if you hadn't taken her in, and that's a really cool thing to do.

I don't know if any of you have read Temple Grandin's work on animal husbandry/neuroscience, but she actually talks quite a bit about this sort of thing. In fact, there's an entire section in her book "Animals Make Us Human" [GREAT READ!] about zoo-kept exotics and this exact debate. One of the main points she makes in her research is that animals, regardless of their level of intelligence, have several basic 'drives' that are hardwired in (in higher functioning mammals we would say 'emotions'). But her theory is that thwarting these hardwired drives causes unnatural and neurotic behavior in zoo animals. Even if the end goal (ie; food, sex, shelter) is supplied and the drive should be satisfied the urge to perform seeking behaviors associated with these things often is not.

My garter is in a fairly spartan enclosure, but it's large enough for him to move about should the desire strike. And it does. Typically one to two days after he's eaten, and more often when the seasons are changing (he's a room-temp snake, so he can pick up on seasonal cues). For awhile, he'll race around his cage and try his damnedest to push the top off. This sounds a LOT like a thwarted mating drive. Also, even though he has plenty of food, he will immediately come out to investigate what's going on if anything comes into the snake room. Yes, that might be a pre-programmed defense behavior instead of happiness/inquisitiveness, but it's still an urge that can be fulfilled, and when it is, the animal is less stressed. That doesn't sound like crappy genetics to me; he's doing what he's programmed to do.

[Millinex]

Before I say anything about the enclosure thing: Regardless, you seem to take care of your snakes, so I'm sure she's in a far better situation than if you hadn't taken her in, and that's a really cool thing to do.

I don't know if any of you have read Temple Grandin's work on animal husbandry/neuroscience, but she actually talks quite a bit about this sort of thing. In fact, there's an entire section in her book "Animals Make Us Human" [GREAT READ!] about zoo-kept exotics and this exact debate. One of the main points she makes in her research is that animals, regardless of their level of intelligence, have several basic 'drives' that are hardwired in (in higher functioning mammals we would say 'emotions'). But her theory is that thwarting these hardwired drives causes unnatural and neurotic behavior in zoo animals. Even if the end goal (ie; food, sex, shelter) is supplied and the drive should be satisfied the urge to perform seeking behaviors associated with these things often is not.

My garter is in a fairly spartan enclosure, but it's large enough for him to move about should the desire strike. And it does. Typically one to two days after he's eaten, and more often when the seasons are changing (he's a room-temp snake, so he can pick up on seasonal cues). For awhile, he'll race around his cage and try his damnedest to push the top off. This sounds a LOT like a thwarted mating drive. Also, even though he has plenty of food, he will immediately come out to investigate what's going on if anything comes into the snake room. Yes, that might be a pre-programmed defense behavior instead of happiness/inquisitiveness, but it's still an urge that can be fulfilled, and when it is, the animal is less stressed. That doesn't sound like crappy genetics to me; he's doing what he's programmed to do.

I actually own and have read the book as part of one of my classes, great read. I do my best to take care of my animals in the way I see fit. None are unhealthy, just because I keep them differently doesn't mean I neglect them.

As for your crappy genetics- no, not saying that per-say, if they have to desire to mate than the risk of predators is worth it to pass on genetics instinctively, however, once provided with that chance, and food/water they have no reason to move. Natural selection would automatically cull the individuals who spend more time "exploring for the hell of it", thus my "garbage genetics" comment.

-Mike

[Spankenstyne]

Here's an interesting pdf some might like to check out.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/Biodiversi...arterSnake.pdf

A few points of interest were that the newly relocated snakes in this study had a return rate to the introduced hibernaculum comparable to the resident population (30% to 32.5%), and that populations in Manitoba have been known to travel as far as 17.7km from their winter hibernaculum. The snakes up here are only above ground around 6 or so months of the year. Not a lot of time for sitting around

[RedSidedSPR]

"They are snakes, they don't need anything to do, or people to see."

They do need something to do. It's actually important. And I never they need people to see.

"SNAKES DO NOT NEED OVERHEAD LIGHTS"

What. Ever.


Everything Richard has said is true. Everything you have said is VERY debatable.

[d_virginiana]

Let's see if I can get the quote thing right here...

I actually own and have read the book as part of one of my classes, great read. I do my best to take care of my animals in the way I see fit. None are unhealthy, just because I keep them differently doesn't mean I neglect them.

As for your crappy genetics- no, not saying that per-say, if they have to desire to mate than the risk of predators is worth it to pass on genetics instinctively, however, once provided with that chance, and food/water they have no reason to move. Natural selection would automatically cull the individuals who spend more time "exploring for the hell of it", thus my "garbage genetics" comment.

I certainly don't think that tub/rack method=neglect, and I believe your animals are probably nice and healthy (I clicked on the link in your signature, and looked at some of the pictures on that page and the animals all looked really good). I prefer a larger tank for mine because I like to look at him, but as long as a snake is healthy and well-kept I don't have a problem with any particular method.

I believe that sometimes animals behave illogically when the desire to perform a certain behavior is present, even though their circumstances make it unnecessary/pointless; like a neutered dog humping a stuffed animal, or a well-fed cat risking injury by hunting. It would be interesting to see how that played out in an intense natural selection scenario though, as there are benefits to both exploring and hiding. The exploratory snake is more likely to find good food and a mate (since there's no steady supply of these things in the wild and exploring to some degree is a must for survival) while the hiding snake is less likely to get itself eaten.

[Millinex]

"They are snakes, they don't need anything to do, or people to see."

They do need something to do. It's actually important. And I never they need people to see.

"SNAKES DO NOT NEED OVERHEAD LIGHTS"

What. Ever.


Everything Richard has said is true. Everything you have said is VERY debatable.

It isn't important, you all have one set way of thinking, and won't consider anything outside of your typical husbandry. I have several people who I've shown this to personally who have laughed hyserically at the thought of a snake having emotion or wanting to explore, because it's flat out dumb and wrong.

There are 0 snakes available today that need any sort of overhead heat light, does that mean keep them in the dark no, however heat lamps are worse for your snake than nothing at all. Show me research on a snake needing heat lights, and I'll link you 10 breeders who breed thousands of snakes a year who never use a single light.

-Mike

[ConcinusMan]

I certainly don't think that tub/rack method=neglect, and I believe your animals are probably nice and healthy

Ditto. I am only saying that the method is merely adequate and far from ideal.

Mine maintain a healthy weight, are not obese or overfed, I can take pictures of any of my tub-raised snakes at any time if you'd like?

How a snake looks in a picture is only a small fraction of what is needed to determine overall health and vitality. How they move, react, and behave is equally, if not more, important. You should know that.

You cant know my animals are not healthy just because they are in bins and kept as such. The garter still hasn't moved 2 days later, man I'm doing something wrong for sure.. Oh wait she's just digesting her meal and enjoying an easy life.

I agree. I cannot know that and as I said before, there is a time for resting and hiding in a garter snakes life. What I do know is that if you provided your garter snakes adequate room, a decent gradient, naturalistic spectrum and light intensity during the day, a regular day/night cycle, and don't overfeed them, that they certainly wouldn't sit in one spot doing nothing all the time. That I do know. I also know that lesurely moving around the enclosure, exploring, and inquisitiveness is not a sign that something is wrong. That is natural behavior for garter snakes. I also know it is not natural for them to hide 24/7 and be sedentary and not active. It's not natural. If they are doing that, they are merely surviving. Not living.

Show me research on a snake needing heat lights, and I'll link you 10 breeders who breed thousands of snakes a year who never use a single light.

-Mike

With albinos as the exception, show me a garter snake that doesn't utilize a basking light. Show me one that hesitates to bask in the sun in the wild. Show me one garter snake that is active and behaves normally without it. Can they merely survive without that? Sure. It's just not even close to a natural life.


It's clear that we've "ruffled each others' feathers" in these discussions/debates. Please Mike, don't take this too seriously or personally and resort to personal attacks. This is what gets threads locked. We can disagree and still be civil.

[Millinex]

Feel free to come see any of my tub raised individuals at anytime. They are just as good as any snake kept in a fancy cage. Go see my new post in the other forum for that haha. Hell, I'd go as far as to say my tub raised 7' northern pine is the largest in captivity, and she was raised in a 91qt tub her entire life.

I'm going to maintain what I think, however, generally when someone comes into my thread and tells me my husbandry is wrong, I get pretty annoyed. Considering none of my snakes are in bad health or have anything wrong with them, and all my customers are always 100% satisfied with their animals.

-Mike

[ConcinusMan]

I'm sure there are plenty of perfectly healthy human beings who live incarcerated their entire lives. Plenty of healthy chickens that live in a cage not much bigger than themselves. I'm pretty sure you can keep either of those animals "healthy" even if they are kept a few degrees cooler or warmer than what is comfortable for them. So what?

[Millinex]

Humans and chickens are both social thinking animals with cognitive abilities, big difference.