6 garters for 10 dollars in paper

[gregmonsta]

we deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law! Oh man, some people's logic is so flawed it makes me literally laugh

I keep seeing this, even in response to one of my comments, that you expect a charge to equal jail or worse ... whereas the original case, etc, would surely just lead to an educating 'slap on the wrist'. Surely, always assuming the worst is 'flawed' logic.

It doesn't change the fact that they still should have known better in this day and age and that examples have to be made to get the point across and judged on the circumstances of each case. ... there's nothing wrong with that logic for as long as animals die through ignorance and bad advice with no form of penalty the hobby is giving more fuel to those who would like to stop the keeping of exotics. It can, will and does stunt the growth of our hobby and directly affects the public opinion of it.

And yes, bad info is out there and people do make mistakes but it is up to people like us to get the right info out there and combat bad practice in its many forms.

[Mommy2many]

Greg, I agree that we must educate those who do not have the knowledge; wether flawed or not.

However, as Shannon stated, we have all made mistakes at first and I can honestly say, that if I didn't have my computer, an internet connection and this forum available to me; I would have made the same mistakes all over again. Thank God for the members here, to share their knowledge.

My girl Stewie, at the time, was gravid. I was able to keep her and her young for at least a year and a half.

There are a few sides to this story and we do not know any of them. I agree wholeheartedly to prosecuting those who willfully abuse and neglect animals. However, we are here to teach. To not make someone new to the husbandry of snakes afraid to ask the necessary questions to properly take care of their charges. No one should be afraid to ask anyone of us a question in regards to our garter snakes and how to keep them and keep them healthy.

Many of us have personally experienced the fatally incorrect advice given to us by the so called "professionals"

This post has gone on long enough, don't you think?

[Millinex]

Oh man, the 14 year old and the grandma deserve the slap on the wrist, stress from law enforcement. Want to know something funny that you probably didn't think through at all?

Pretend your the 14 year old kid, you keep the snake and fail at it, you're already upset they died. On top of that, suddenly cops and whatnot show up at your house, and your grandma, saying "if you do it again you'll be in real trouble!". Guess what happens? Kid never has an interest in keeping snakes again, in fear, because some idiot decided calling the cops and trying to press charges was the best option, just to "make an example".

Again, some of the logic in this hobby is so hideously terrible I lay awake at night, sometimes for up to an hour, just chuckling. The greatest detriment to the reptile hobby, is not a fear of snakes, is not the laws preventing certain animals.. The single greatest detriment, are members of the community itself, who either put themselves on some pedestal like they are better than anyone else, or the extremists who are unforgiving of beginner mistakes.

-Mike

[Didymus20X6]

To some people, snakes are nothing more than worms with faces.

Correction: Worms with FANGS. The faces, not so much.

[d_virginiana]

Correction: Worms with FANGS

That's a legitimately terrifying thought....
I won't even get near blood-worms because they can nip at you. If worms actually had fangs I would probably never garden again.

[gregmonsta]

Want to know something funny that you probably didn't think through at all?

Pretend your the 14 year old kid, you keep the snake and fail at it, you're already upset they died. On top of that, suddenly cops and whatnot show up at your house, and your grandma, saying "if you do it again you'll be in real trouble!". Guess what happens? Kid never has an interest in keeping snakes again, in fear, because some idiot decided calling the cops and trying to press charges was the best option, just to "make an example".

Then they weren't serious about keeping snakes in the first place ... A warning would've made me endeavour to to try harder if I had been faced with such a situation in the past.
I've seen friendly advice fall on deaf ears too often as well as being rudely dismissed by hobby keepers and reptile shops alike. My viewpoint may be jaded by this ... but these mistakes have already been made numerous times.
Not knowing every detail of the story is a problem ... but a post that tells of the death of a group of snakes in a case like this will always be evocative.
I still blame the parents and the grandmother.

[Sonya610]

Again, some of the logic in this hobby is so hideously terrible I lay awake at night, sometimes for up to an hour, just chuckling. The greatest detriment to the reptile hobby, is not a fear of snakes, is not the laws preventing certain animals.. The single greatest detriment, are members of the community itself, who either put themselves on some pedestal like they are better than anyone else, or the extremists who are unforgiving of beginner mistakes.

I do not think logic plays into your arguments; your arguments are primarily grandiose dramatic gesturing on a variety of topics with very little consistency.

No one believes animal control could or would get anyone prosecuted for this. To even suggest as much is idiocy! Fact is if anyone thought the authorities took an interest they would stuff the whole container in a nearby trash can or or dump then over into a neighbors yard in a heartbeat. There was NO RISK of prosecution so there is no need to carry on like the kid or the poor little granny will end up in the big house.

This is a forum devoted to garter snakes, people on this forum SHOULD get upset when they read about an incident such as this. If everyone just shrugged and said "oh well....no biggie...they are just garter snakes afterall" that would be far more disconcerting.

[Millinex]

Then they weren't serious about keeping snakes in the first place ... A warning would've made me endeavour to to try harder if I had been faced with such a situation in the past.
I've seen friendly advice fall on deaf ears too often as well as being rudely dismissed by hobby keepers and reptile shops alike. My viewpoint may be jaded by this ... but these mistakes have already been made numerous times.
Not knowing every detail of the story is a problem ... but a post that tells of the death of a group of snakes in a case like this will always be evocative.
I still blame the parents and the grandmother.

The interest in snakes has to start somewhere. I certainly didn't plan on being where I was with my first few snakes, they where just something fun to have, if they died I tried again doing something different. Hobbys like this have to have time to GROW, they don't develop into "serious keeping" overnight.
Again, that is why I said the reptile industry itself is its greatest enemy, my own herp shop still fails to listen to me about monitors, despite the fact I have 4 healthy ones in my care, and theirs have a tendency to die.

I do not think logic plays into your arguments; your arguments are primarily grandiose dramatic gesturing on a variety of topics with very little consistency.

No one believes animal control could or would get anyone prosecuted for this. To even suggest as much is idiocy! Fact is if anyone thought the authorities took an interest they would stuff the whole container in a nearby trash can or or dump then over into a neighbors yard in a heartbeat. There was NO RISK of prosecution so there is no need to carry on like the kid or the poor little granny will end up in the big house.

This is a forum devoted to garter snakes, people on this forum SHOULD get upset when they read about an incident such as this. If everyone justshrugged and said "oh well....no biggie...they are just garter snakes afterall" that would be far more disconcerting.

No, they wouldn't get anyone prosecuted, because animal control would laugh in your face, multiple times. I'm fully aware of this. The problem is, members of this forum WANT animal control to do what they won't do- prosecute and file charges. The fact people want these people prosecuted is repulsive. Clearly you didn't understand the point I was getting at?

I also understand this forum should be upset; however, that doesn't give them an excuse to be extremists about things. Frankly, if a young kid is getting into the hobby, and happens to kill a few snakes along the way while learning, so be it, I don't look down on them as nearly everyone I know managed to fail starting out. Hell, I know people getting into species and STILL after years of snake keeping fail at proper husbandry. I know of people who spend $500+ on setups, only to not keep the snake right and it die, I watched it happen the other day with 2 ball pythons. Man oh man, BUT WE ARE ANGRY ON THE INTERNET, GET THEM!

Seriously, let people be, there is no reason to want animal control involved in any of this, or to be as upset as a lot of people here are.

[ConcinusMan]

Just for the record I never said they should be prosecuted. I think that would be based on a case-by-case basis to determine if that is warranted. I'm sure in many cases, it's not warranted. All I was trying to say is that enforcement seems a bit biased. If someone had done the same thing to just about any other animal (horse, dog, sheep, cat, etc.) you can bet they would be looking into it. I just think the law should not exempt people from responsibility just because "it's just a garter snake" or "just a reptile"

Seriously, what they did is "abuse by neglect" by definition. Why should people be exempt from prosecution just because it's a garter snake and not dog or cat?

Let's be clear that "animal cruelty" is not what this is. That is a more serious offense and is when someone intentionally tortures or makes an animal suffer for their own amusement. Penalties for that are severe.

When you own an animal it is your responsibility to see to it's proper care. If you cannot do that, it is your responsibility to give up that animal to someone who can. Fail to do that, for whatever reason, and it results in suffering, neglect, and death of the animal, you are responsible for that. It doesn't matter if your intention was to make the animal suffer or not. It's still abuse by neglect. It doesn't matter if "you didn't mean to" or if it was out of ignorance. It's still a crime in the U.S. although not nearly as serious as animal cruelty. First or sometimes even second offense for neglect often doesn't even result in jail time. Instead it's usually a fine and/or community service, usually working at an animal rescue or shelter.

Do I think these people should be aggressively prosecuted and thrown in jail? No. Not really. But I still think they should be held responsible. They need to send the message that this is not OK. Doesn't matter if they meant to do it or not. Doesn't matter if it was just a case of ignorance.

[Millinex]

Reptile husbandry is in essence in it's infancy. Everyone in the world can take care of a dog, they've been around for a long time as domesticated animal. Go up to random people on the street, I'd bet a large portion do not have any idea how to take care of a snake, but know how to take care of a dog.

It's not because "it's just a snake" it's because information is not readily known by the public.

-Mike