6 garters for 10 dollars in paper

[Sonya610]

Though if you weren't aiming that at people on this particular thread, you probably should have worded your initial comment a bit differently.

I was referring to someone that posted in this thread, I won't mention any names as that would be overly direct but it is likely that others who have followed various conversations are aware of the point I am making.

[d_virginiana]

I have followed several other conversations, and I'm aware of the person to whom you are referring; that was actually pretty direct, because I picked up on it and I think I've probably spent about two hours total on this forum.

Accusing someone of condoning abuse/neglect is pretty serious, and while I've come across people here who have different views on husbandry and animal psychology than my own, I wouldn't toss that sort of language out there on a forum where it seems like most everybody cares deeply about their snakes (otherwise, why else would they be here?)

** Sorry about harping, but this issue hits some personal buttons of mine due to a couple of rather tragic incidents that people in my community have had to deal with because of well-meaning but out-of-touch vets reporting devoted pet owners to animal control because of perceived but not actual abuse/neglect.

[Sonya610]

You are free to have all the opinions you like however when it comes to schooling other site members on what they should and should not post please realize I do not take direction from you.

If you believe my posts are violating the T&C's of this site I suggest you take it up with a Moderator.

I am done discussing this.

[brujha]

how do you post pictures on this site

[brujha]

i do my best to help any creature in need, that i can afford to or have room for. then rehome them if needed or re release them have even bottle fed a few racoons for a d&r friend and a fox till they were ready to take care of them self..except mabe misquetos or flys lol

[mustang]

i dont believe in giving animals as presents unless you know A) they can take care of them and B) they know when they need help.

when i got checker i had him for a good few weeks before i finally found thihs site...then once i did, checker's life expectancy grew past a year. and now i still have him.

[d_virginiana]

Sonya610: I never said you shouldn't have posted something; honestly, I don't really care enough about it to bother trying to give you 'direction'. I disagreed with what you posted and then gave reasons why I saw the issue a different way. I was simply discussing an issue that I have a personal interest in. The most I ever said about your posts was that your language was getting a bit combative. I agree that this is probably a good place to end that line of conversation.

have even bottle fed a few racoons for a d&r friend and a fox till they were ready to take care of them self.

That is so cool! Did you end up releasing them, or did they have to stay in captivity? I've raised orphaned opossums before, and they're pretty much all instinct, so it's cool to just release them once they're old enough, but I've never worked with raccoons or foxes before.

[Millinex]

The comment was not directed at you.

You are correct, I have not seen any comments in THIS thread regarding keeping snakes solely for profit and not as pets however the comment has been made by some in OTHER threads.

AKA, Me, Don't be afraid to mention my name, it doesn't bother me.

The profitability stance is one thing, but combine that with statements that amount to "it is just a snake that can't think and doesn't feel"

That is my view based upon what I have observed and researched over the last 15 years, and "feel" is about emotion, not pain, the CNS.

and then defending the abuse of the animals with statements that amount to "humans, even abusive humans, are intrinsically superior therefore if in doubt they should get a free pass"

I'm not defending the abuse of animals, I'm more than against it; however, the idea of putting some 80 year old lady, or a 14 year old kid, in jail over a couple snakes when abuse wasn't intentional, is 100% STUPID. I'm not afraid to say it, that is why America is going down hill, myself, I'd rather educate both parties and let them try again and learn, than just throw them in jail. Again, these are the same kind of people who sue mcdonalds when they drop their coffee on themselves crying: "I didn't know it was hot!". Seriously, it's disgusting how much people cry and call for the justice system this day and age.

makes up negative viewpoint in my mind. WHile the average joe blow on the street can hold the views it is a bit different when such views are shared on a forum devoted to the well-being of these fine animals and the statements are made by someone who chooses to buy/sell/keep the animals in large numbers.

Oh man, I hold views different than you but still maintain a large collection of PERFECTLY healthy snakes. However, because I disagree with certain keeping methods, and certain uses of law, it's such a huge deal, that's laughable.

I was referring to someone that posted in this thread, I won't mention any names as that would be overly direct but it is likely that others who have followed various conversations are aware of the point I am making.

Hi, I'm Mike use my name and don't be afraid to.

I have followed several other conversations, and I'm aware of the person to whom you are referring; that was actually pretty direct, because I picked up on it and I think I've probably spent about two hours total on this forum.

Everyone did, however actually saying my name seems difficult for some people? It's not like I bite, oh wait, I do, I defend what I believe and I'm not a door mat.

Accusing someone of condoning abuse/neglect is pretty serious, and while I've come across people here who have different views on husbandry and animal psychology than my own, I wouldn't toss that sort of language out there on a forum where it seems like most everybody cares deeply about their snakes (otherwise, why else would they be here?)

Again, I never condone abuse/neglect, I just view this scenario different. Should the guy fighting dogs be in jail? Yep, the guy with a trailer full of poorly kept snakes in texas? Yep, because they KNEW what they where doing was wrong. Big difference. Also, in terms of "care deeply". That's one of those interesting statements. I will say I would never value my snakes over my dog, or monitors, doesn't mean I don't care about them though.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I actually agree with Mike on this one. Have none of you guys EVER made a beginner's mistake? Not one single one? You all did it right, right from the start? Probably not... but maybe you thought what you were doing was totally right, and when the animal died or suffered some, even minor discomfort because of it... should you have been prosectured for neglect and abuse? Maybe the animal didn't even suffer noticeably, maybe you just had your temps a little too high, but it was wrong regardless, so you should be charged with animal cruelty and given no chance to redeem yourself... zero tolerance, right?

When I got started in this hobby, as a kid, I had to do it for myself... I had no one to show me what to do or where to get my information. I had no idea there were a lot of other people like me that took interest in snakes, especially garter snakes. I didn't know anything about reptile shows, or that you could ship snakes, or that blue calcium sand was not the best thing to keep my garters on. Besides it says right on the package it is GOOD for reptiles. I had a very skewed idea of how to keep garter snakes for YEARS. But I thought I was right. My beginners mistakes killed a few snakes. In fact, I probably killed about 10 garter snakes in my early years because I simply did not know what the hell I was doing. So by all means guys... string me up. banish me! Prosecute me to the fullest extent of the law. My ignorance was intolerable, inexcusable.

For all we know this kid looked up garter snakes, read that they eat crickets and called it a day. How many public sources have we all seen that say this is the case? What are the chances that some know-it-all guy at some pet store gave the kid really bad information and assured him it was right? There is a difference between people who have been informed they are keeping their snakes wrong, and still choose to do it, and people who just plain don't know any better and sincerely think they are doing it right. We don't know ANY of the circumstances of this whole ordeal, but so many are so quick to pass judgement. This saddens me. Yes, these people should be educated so it does not happen again. But should they be tied to a stake and have stones thrown at them? Likely not. If we as hobbyists do not lead by example, GOOD examples, we are no better than anyone else that enjoys throwing stones. So we can throw stones, and grumble about stupid people, about how we would love to get some sort of vengeance for the snakes that died, or we can continue to better our communities by doing educational shows, spreading our knowledge, and stopping to talk to people that just skitzed out at the park because they saw a snake.

What defines a person's character is not what mistakes they make, but how they react to their mistakes and what they take away from them. Do they take what has happened, and learn from it? Do they try to improve the next time around? Or do they just do the same thing over again, uncaring if the results are the same? If this is the case, then, and only then, by all means, throw stones. big ones.

[infernalis]

Thank you Shannon.. I had refrained from speaking until now.

I simply must concur with what she so eloquently stated, even I am guilty of accidentally killing animals because I thought I was doing the right thing.

We have all at some time or another done something that caused the premature death of an animal, weather we ran it over with a mower, or touched a baby bird causing it's mother to throw it from the nest, or even misinterpreted a symptom and provided the wrong treatment.

None of us are criminals for it..