Expensive garters

[mb90078]

I hear where this guy is coming from. The major garter breeder sites are very good, and information based, with pictures supplementing. But, I don't think it would be a bad idea for someone to try the more basic, almost classified-type approach, where you show a garter, show a price, show the species.

Of course at the volume that these breeders sell at it would be a huge task, but I could see how that would be more useful for a beginner to the hobby (and likewise unnecessary for a veteran).

[ConcinusMan]

I wonder if the mindset is only breeders or collectors would buy therefore don't dumb down the site for pet buyers.

100% Het flame albinos (normal looking) $100
Flames 66% Het albino flame $175 - $225
50% Piebald hets - Inquire
Albino flame/erythristic combined ?
Flames $100 - $150
Leucistics - (From Paradox bloodline) $450
Flames 66% Het leucistic $375 - $425 pair
66% Het leucistic $250 pair

Let me point out that you are looking at a price list for eastern garter snake (T. sirtalis sirtalis) morphs there. This is a list for people who know what they are looking for, know what the percentages mean, and just need to see the prices for this year's offspring. It is not intended to answer any questions or to educate anyone about the morphs. However...

The very same website (or any google search) will also show you what a "flame" eastern is. Same goes for Albino flame, erythristic, leucistic, etc.

I have always found it very easy to look at this list and if I don't know what a certain morph is, I then go to the gallery on the very same website, and see pics of what a certain morph looks like. I also know that a "het albino" is a normal looking snake that carries albino genes. The percentages are the odds that a het carries a certain gene.

It just seems to me that if you don't know what these things mean, or what certain morphs look like, then you should do the research. The information you seem to be missing is right in front of you, and on that same website. It really doesn't take much effort on your part to find out what this stuff means so that you will understand the list just fine. If someone is selling dozens of "spider ball pythons" for example and I don't know what that means, I'm just going to have to research that. I don't expect the seller to do that for me.

But, I don't think it would be a bad idea for someone to try the more basic, almost classified-type approach, where you show a garter, show a price, show the species.

Of course at the volume that these breeders sell at it would be a huge task, but I could see how that would be more useful for a beginner to the hobby (and likewise unnecessary for a veteran).

Not sure what you're getting at there. Pretty much everybody here already does that. Are you suggesting that a breeder take pictures and post an ad for each snake out dozens, or hundreds born? That's not going to happen for obvious reasons. I always do show pics of the actual snake before I ship but I"m certainly not about to do each individual one and place ads for them if I have dozens of them. Its not practical.

I'm just having a hard time trying to picture what exactly it is that you're suggesting should be changed.

[Sonya610]

I'm just having a hard time trying to picture what exactly it is that you're suggesting should be changed.

This thread started off with you saying you were trying to understand the market, and you didn't want to sell to whole salers at $5-$10 an animal.

Merely pointing out there IS a market out there and a good website could bring in pet buyers. I do research regarding husbandry so I know how to care for the animal and what to expect, but beyond that I do not want to research genetics or spend hours googling photos and then more hours trying to find a specific morph etc... I am quite sure I am not the only person like this.

[infernalis]

I understand fully, those of us who know what to look for will use certain keywords that a rookie may never have heard of before...

My numerous galleries are all eye candy and no info..

[ConcinusMan]

This thread started off with you saying you were trying to understand the market, and you didn't want to sell to whole salers at $5-$10 an animal.

Merely pointing out there IS a market out there and a good website could bring in pet buyers. I do research regarding husbandry so I know how to care for the animal and what to expect, but beyond that I do not want to research genetics or spend hours googling photos and then more hours trying to find a specific morph etc... I am quite sure I am not the only person like this.

I started this thread in December of 2010. A lot about my understanding of the market has changed since then. You say "I do not want to research genetics or spend hours googling photos and then more hours trying to find a specific morph etc... I am quite sure I am not the only person like this"

I totally understand where you're coming from but let me ask you this. If you suddenly decided to spend $200,000 on a car, would you not do any research before you decide what car to purchase in your price range? It really isn't the car dealers business to make sure you know what you're buying, especially when he sells out all of his stock every year, to people who already do know what they are buying.

If you take a look at the photographic library on this website, and click on specific species, you will often find photos of different morphs(different forms or variations) of that species. For example, plains garter snake:
Photographic Library - Caresheets

Oregon Red Spotted: Photographic Library - Caresheets

If there is any place to come and ask questions and to do research before you purchase, you've come to the right place. Right here.

[Millinex]

Snake pricing has always been one of those things that isn't overly easy to understand. First of all, garters while in their many many color forms, have not taken off to the mainstream yet, and I hate to break hearts, they just aren't as popular as many other commercially offered snakes. That isn't to downlplay them at all, but it does a tremendous amount towards what they are worth, even morphs.

Yes, your snake is much prettier than the other, however, to the buyer, he isn't buying for beauty. Who knows why they purchased these snakes, maybe for the sake of having something no one else has, childhood memories, some special plans that maybe garters will take off, and he'll be able to offer something no one else can. Who knows why these individuals where sold for $300, there are so many reasons that you'd have to ask the buyer directly. Give me a handful of garters, give me pretty colors, morphs, you name it, want to know which ones will sell first? You guessed it, the normals. For most it really doesn't make sense, why would someone choose a normal over a beautiful animal someone worked hard for? Simple, they want the snake they had growing up, either for them, a kid, and hell if it doesn't work out release it, they can't do that with a morph as readily because it's more "exotic" to them. Every year I go through a ton of t. e. vagarans normals, some up to $40 each, for dull brown snakes with yellow stripes, when my friend can hardly sell normal corns for $15.

I've been watching ball pythons a lot lately, and their sales, even though frankly I hate ball pythons.. I've bought and sold a few of them lately, guess who all my buyers have been so far? Girls. How does this apply? For the most part, a large majority of women I have met are terrified of snakes, moreso than men, and for a lot of guys I know, the wife/girlfriend etc is too terrified to let them have a snake. I'm not trying to sound sexist, but part of the reason you see a ball python worth 10k is the fact you can breed it and get babies worth 1k+ each, all sorts of pretty colors. Girls see the fat colorful snake, and something about them gets them over the fear. Us guys take our chance to get a snake, we please them with the pretty color, and we still get our snake.

Where do garters play into this? What snake did they probably grow up killing? Garters. Which snakes did mom scream for dad as a kid? Garters. Which snake is probably the most persecuted snake in America? Garters. Which snake did most little boys grow up catching and scaring mom with? Garters. When I look at my customers, I can for sure say that every single garter I sold last year, was too a male.

If you want to win over people, and start seeing colorful morphs really take off and gain a ton of value, you need to win over the women. They need more promotion and awareness of the species, and more large calm colorful garters need to be present at reptile expos and whatnot, get them hooked, and you could very easily see that blue garter be worth over a grand.

-Mike

[infernalis]

funny thing is, I would give $300 for the right garter snake, no problem...

If you gave me $300 I may just take your BP...

Nothing like a boring snake that lives in it's hide.

Yep, shell out that cash for a shoe box (hide) that eats, drinks and defecates.

[Millinex]

funny thing is, I would give $300 for the right garter snake, no problem...

If you gave me $300 I may just take your BP...

Nothing like a boring snake that lives in it's hide.

Yep, shell out that cash for a shoe box (hide) that eats, drinks and defecates.

I never understood it either, but my girlfriend loves her ball python to death, despite the fact he literally sits in one place 23 hours of the day, 1 hour at the most if she brings him out, and she invested over a grand into professional display cages for them..

[Sonya610]

I totally understand where you're coming from but let me ask you this. If you suddenly decided to spend $200,000 on a car, would you not do any research before you decide what car to purchase in your price range? It really isn't the car dealers business to make sure you know what you're buying, especially when he sells out all of his stock every year, to people who already do know what they are buying.

I spent plenty of timing look up info about garter snake temperament habits, diet, humidity requirements, lighting, etc... The important stuff!

Then the second phase was looking for specific types. I am very fond of the erythristic flames, easy to say, not so easy to find. Sure I have come across a couple of sites that say they have upcoming babies, maybe, but then because I am an unknown pet owner and not a breeder it becomes very vague (i.e. call me in june or so after they are born). Uh huh...we know that means "I don't want to mess with a pet buyer wanting ONE animal so call me in 2 months and I will tell you I have sold out because I am putting all the best animals on hold for the regular breeders/customers". LOL.

Nothing like a boring snake that lives in it's hide. Yep, shell out that cash for a shoe box (hide) that eats, drinks and defecates.

LOL yeah I have a BP. I have always found snakes to be the most beautiful of reptiles and had a garter snake as a kid. I think one reason women like the ball pythons is because they seem well...cuddly and not squirmy. They are quite lovely to hold but they are reclusive picky eaters that often don't like being held even though they tolerate it, they hide in a box 24/7. Mine hides CONSTANTLY and was on F/T but now demands live feeder rats (which I have to house here due to the driving distance).

The live food thing is really very very difficult for me, I have a couple of pet rats and I feel really awful feeding live rat babies; there is no reward for me in this situation. I only see my BP once a week for 1 minute when she comes out to kill a baby rat and I don't want to watch that. It sickens me. Heck it isn't even one minute, I drop the well fed baby rat in the cage and then shut the cage and cover it with a dark sheet so she has her "privacy" then run out onto the porch for a smoke so I don't have to hear the baby rat scream (no risk for the snake, if she doesn't eat in 15 minutes I pull the rat for next time). It is turning into a lose/lose situation and I may rehome her.

[Jeff B]

Thanks for the tips Sonya, I will look into your suggested improvements.