Expensive garters

[Jeff B]

Richard I'm really not trying to come down on you, I am sincerely trying to help you, but you need to take some responsibility. The reason you're not selling your snakes for what you think they should go for, has nothing to do with me or any other breeder.
Perhaps you need to have more patience to let the demand develop, especially when you had the only supply like the anerys, but too late for that now because you sold adults. You now will have competition selling babies before you have even yourself produced babies and your competition may likely market them better.
Unfortunately it sounds like maybe the concinnus weren't real popular last year, but heck the market and what's hot or what’s not, can change on a dime I have found, I might go a couple months and not sell a single albino red-sided and then the next month sell 10 in a week. You hadn't even produced babies, tried to sell them, get an idea what people are willing to pay, and that does NOT mean what will they pay so you are sold out of babies in 3 days, but rather what are people willing to pay when it is convenient to them.
Every new potential sale should be viewed as a unique opportunity to gain a happy and satisfied customer, and the only good successful business transaction is when both the buyer and seller are happy with it.
You had a rare unique opportunity to bring a new morph into the hobby, but maybe you just needed to have a little more patience to see the project through to fruition. Will you will be able to have more patience after you produce babies this year and they don't all sell in a week?

[ConcinusMan]

This is going to be long but I would like to explain where I am now...

Perhaps you need to have more patience to let the demand develop, especially when you had the only supply like the anerys, but too late for that now because you sold adults. You now will have competition selling babies before you have even yourself produced babies and your competition may likely market them better.

Believe me, that's the first thing I thought of when I first got this morph. I think we talked about this before Jeff. I do not view this as, nor do I think it should be, a competition. If "they" market them better than I, than good! Let them market them, creating demand, and I will still benefit from that. I do not give a darn who gets credit for being "first". Nor do I want to be the only source and charge ridiculous prices. I think all this damn bickering you guys do is a bit ridiculous. If you guys would help each other and cooperate to create the new morphs, all of you could mutually benefit and bring them to fruition sooner. Also, I did not just indiscriminately sell off a bunch of adults just to make a few bucks now, due to impatience. I gave it much thought and careful consideration in every aspect. There is a method to my madness, believe that. I will attempt to explain. I only have room and time for so many snakes and breeding projects and that capacity is somewhat limited. I can really only handle so many litters in a season, and so many offspring (and grow-ups) in my current situation so having one or two other breeders working on this, in cooperation, not competition, is good. Also, I have a strong goal to diversify and get into breeding other morphs and species such as plains garters and checkereds which I know will sell very well locally at well above average online market value that most of you established breeders get. Being how I am cash poor, the quickest way to accomplish that and acquire the animals I require, is to use the only card I have - this anery morph. My goal is actually to use this to acquire animals I can't afford to pay for, so I can move away from breeding concinnus, or any sirtalis for the most part. I just can't go to local shows with them or any sirtalis, or sell them locally and high profile. pet stores here can't sell sirtalis either, but they can sell the species I have been getting in trade. I am actually looking to pass on the "blue anery morph torch" so to speak, but I also want to make sure I secure the animals I need for my long term goal,(non sirtalis breeding) in the process.

It looks like perhaps myself and shannon will be the only one's producing anery to anery litters. Don is the only other person that has the snakes required but it is unclear if he's going to produce any. I highly doubt that this will "ruin" my market by producing competition. There was, and still is, no need to "create demand" for these since the demand was strong from day one, and still is strong. As I said, I am not in competition with Don or Shannon. We are mutually benefiting. I'm getting the animals I need from them, to accomplish my long term goals and they got anery breeders from me in return. It's win-win. I have a local market new to snakes that you guys have had for decades. Also, I can get much more for them.

You had a rare unique opportunity to bring a new morph into the hobby, but maybe you just needed to have a little more patience to see the project through to fruition. Will you will be able to have more patience after you produce babies this year and they don't all sell in a week?

I completely understand and believe me, I recognized the "rare unique" opportunity and still do. I am using the opportunity in the best way I know how, to benefit my long term goals, to benefit a few other breeders, and the garter snake hobby as a whole. Like I said, there's a method to my madness and so far, it's going as planned. I have some darn fine animals(non sirtalis) to grow up and breed for my local market and what's the big deal if shannon or don also produce a litter of anery concinnus? We might all three just "co-op up" and dictate their value, (a.k.a. set the price). Did you ever think of that? Farmers do it, so can we. I think the small group of us can all benefit each other by cooperating whereas if we were in competition with each other, we both would lose out on opportunities. Sort of a "united we stand tall and accomplish much. Divided, we struggle in competition and accomplish very little"

[Jeff B]

I understand your method of madness more now, it's a different perspective than mine, but to each there own. You really can't have your cake and eat it with prices though, either you care or you don't. If you say you don't care about value and prices and the money ect, ect., thats fine, but don't complain about a lack of it either then, when you go to sell. You should be happy that your concinus weren't worth anything, that's what you really want anyway isn't it? You don't want to pay for any of the snakes that are higher dollar and you don't think they should cost that much right? And what "we" sell these morphs for is rediculous, right? Isn't what you really want, is for all morphs and all garters to sell for $10-20?

[ConcinusMan]

Isn't what you really want, is for all morphs and all garters to sell for $10-20?

No Jeff, that's not it at all. It's not exactly that simple. Try to understand when I started this thread I was coming from a point of frustration and was only trying to understand the market a bit better. In the previous year, normal concinnus were selling for $35 and going fast. I put my effort into producing them for the following year and nearly had to give them away and it wasn't just me. Even reptutable established breeders weren't selling them very well and had to drop prices. I was only trying to understand why, and I was frustrated as I said. I totally understand that some of the more expensive morphs out there are much more difficult to produce and take a much longer investment of time, money, and effort.

I also now understand that we are all going to take a different approach to the marketing aspect. You do what works for you. I just won't be buying flames, or any other morph as long as they remain as high priced as they are. Lord knows with my luck, if I did do that, by the time I raise them up and produce litters of them, they will darn near be worthless. That's just how it seems to work out for me.

Are you going to sit there and actually tell me that these anery concinnus would go for $250 or higher just because I keep them to myself?

Please. I knew better than that, just by the fact that Scott wasn't even slightly interested in trading for them when I first got them, and neither were you.

When I say "ridiculous" price, I mean from my perspective. I just don't think that snow or albino red sideds are worth the prices you guys charge. It's insane to me. Not nearly as insane as ball python or retic morphs though.

[Jeff B]

Well I don't know Richard, they must be worth it at the time for a lot of people, because I produced over 50 snows and albino red-sideds and have sold every single one of them (minus the one albino female and snow male that I kept for myself) plus sold all the by-product hets, yet still I keep my day job, lol you should see my expences in a year, ouch, my rodent and bedding bills alone would probably cause you a heart attach Richard, plus since my Garter Snake Morph business is a legally registered business, I actually pay taxes as well. I think they were kinda cheap considering how beautiful they are and what great dispositions they have, and their number of morph gene copies, maybe I wasn't charging enough? lol

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

For the record... palpating the female that was courted prior to arrival here dictates that she is gravid. The female that recently locked up is obviously not showing yet... but it was such a good strong lock... with a nice plug that i am fairly confident that two clutches will be produced this year. No further interest from either male is a good sign. I am honestly hoping for smaller clutches, larger babies... and will hold back the majority, if not all of the babies. When they come out, I will know nothing of which ones are going to be standouts when they grow up. The only way to pick the standouts, will be to hang on to everyone. There are a few different "looks" to this morph... one is white and black, another is BLUE as a puget... in fact, looks so much like a puget I worry they will be labeled as such by amateurs, and my personal favorite, the female that recently locked up has an ever-so-faint hinting of color under the green glow... stunning. Jaw dropping... effortless beauty. As we all know... concinnus come out looking ridiculously dull compared to what they will become. The interest in anery's at hamburg at my table was overwhelming when I had them on display. I am not going to count my chickens before they hatch... but I have a feeling that I am not going to have any trouble selling any offspring that I may decide to part with... but if I get small enough clutches... I am holding them all back, as I won't be able to tell which babies are going to be BLUE, which will be WHITE, and which will be that "if you squint your eyes you can almost see some pink". I am not going to make the mistake of selling off so many offspring that these snakes become a dime a dozen in three year's time... oh no way... these snakes are too special for that! And I am not talking monetary value... I just mean that to me, they are special in a way I can't explain. And if it were not for Richard wanting to "pass the torch"... I would not have had the opportunity. Richard has made it clear, at least to me, that he does not intend to collect and sell the animals for a profit, and does not intend to send them every which way... because he knows very well that THAT alone will destroy any set "market value" (something I don't believe in anyway, as everyone has the right to sell at the price they want to.... but that's a whole 'nother argument)

Heck, I don't even SELL the majority of my babies. I trade them.

Totally (sort of off topic) on the "people skills" We all have our virtues and our faults... not everyone can be a people person... but there is maybe only one person that uses this forum that knows ME well enough to know that I myself...and this will surprise many... am NOT a people person. And that my people "skills" while good, are learned from managing in retail... they are rather superficial... merely a cordiality (I think that''s a word? haha) Long story short... I am secretly evil and slightly antisocial.... lol!!! When it gets down to it... I can't stand people in general, I generally find my own species to be going so far down the tubes that it's practically not worth having "people skills" anymore. I do everything in my power to avoid people in large doses because I am ashamed to be a member of the same species as most.

[ConcinusMan]

Richard has made it clear, at least to me, that he does not intend to collect and sell the animals for a profit, and does not intend to send them every which way... because he knows very well that THAT alone will destroy any set "market value"

With that said, let me make things clear right now because I know how things get spread around really fast in certain circles and I'd rather you hear from me now, than to find out later.

I have made some (males only) available to other people, and might just do it a time or two more. You might find out, you might not so let me explain now, before you do find out.

As you know, last year I did sell a male to someone but I certainly didn't make any profit to speak of. That single male, bound for Canada, well, you get the idea. Not even going to have any effect. It was intended to be a pet and the person had no grand plans for breeding. Besides that, like I said, Canada, and only a single male.

I also have another male right now that is completely useless. I mean, this guy isn't the slightest bit interested in sex at all, no matter how attractive a female may be to most other males. He just isn't interested in breeding at all. I've had him for about a year, he's well adapted to captivity and tamed, treated and cleaned for parasites, etc., so it seems a shame to just release him and/or let that year go to waste but I really don't need him any more. I need the room. I really do believe it takes two viable anery's to have any hopes of reproducing them any time soon or perhaps at all.

Well that's perfect because I found him a buyer who is dead set on not ever breeding reptiles again. I found this out before I even offered him this snake. He just thinks they look nice and just wants one male. Fine with me. Again, I won't make anything. I will just get back some of what he cost me in care, meds, fecal screen, etc. over the past year. This shouldn't undermine anything or cause them to be "a dime a dozen" in a year or two, since it's only a male, and won't breed anyway.

I just want to be clear that although you guys aren't the only ones that have got these, I have sold a few to other low profile non breeder people who just want pets, and you two are the only ones besides myself that have breedable females and it will stay that way. Those are rather hard to come by in the first place. Last trip I made out there, I saw only two anery females out of a lot of snakes. They were in such bad shape, I doubt they will even survive the summer, let alone the stress of captivity.

Here's one of the two anery females I saw. You can see what I mean about the shape she's in. Anyway, it's clear to me that this place cannot spare any more anery females. There's plenty of normal, or near normal ones though. Poor girl couldn't even slither away fast enough to outrun a slug. With a little luck, we have enough already to get them established in captivity and I won't need to collect anymore ever again.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I think what I meant was that, you do not intend to rape this population to your benefit/personal gain. I do not mind if you send snakes to other people.. I do not mind one bit. I sure as hell am not going to tell you what to do! I know you and you won't go so far as to collect 50 of them and sell them to every tom **** and harry that wants them! There are people that would... and I am glad they are not the ones to have found such a nice population.

[ConcinusMan]

You are right. I wouldn't do that. I really have a great time going out there and spending a few hours observing them in the wild. I wouldn't want to ruin that for temporary financial gain. I certainly don't need to get a rep for being someone who sells large numbers of unhealthy WC snakes either. Lord knows I don't need that. The only ones I have let go have spent plenty of time in captivity and proven themselves to be healthy and well adapted.

There are people who have known about these for decades and have been coming out here to enjoy watching them too. Since we haven't been seeing these in the market place, it's pretty clear that the "rapers" haven't been out here collecting and that's good.

[RicMartin]

I agree with Shannon that humans are way overrated; the opposite of garters.

I have no experience with the market, other than as a buyer, but maybe most people are not shopping that heavily these days due to the economy being tanked?

I know I'm not. Otherwise I'd be looking at some groovy flame paradoxes, overpriced or not. I don't plan to ever own every type of garter, & the local ones here (California) are legally out of the question for me, so my moto is simple:

"Radixes are forever, & paradoxes will eventually come home to Cali"

For now, I rather spend my scarce money on our snakes than on toxic Chinese gadget imports. Crazy, ain't it?