Communal Breeding

[Chondro788]

This is the first time I have communally bred any type of snake. There are 3 females in this cage, and the 1 little male in back. I hope he likes all of them!!

[gregmonsta]

I'm sure he will .... not sure albino x albino is the best choice for pairing though. Met a couple of 'upside' down albino checkereds from such pairings in my time (neurological issues).

[guidofatherof5]

Nice looking group.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm sure he will .... not sure albino x albino is the best choice for pairing though. Met a couple of 'upside' down albino checkereds from such pairings in my time (neurological issues).

albino x albino is just fine as long as they are not continuously inbred and then bred together as brother and sister. People seem to just get a pair, breed them, and then someone buys a pair of those babies and breeds them, and then someone buys a pair of those babies and breeds them, and then someone buys a pair of THOSE babies and breeds them, and snakes start coming out funky. Albino x albino is not the cause, its severely inbred albino x severely inbred albino that is the cause.... if only people understood the value of OUTCROSSING.

[Jeff B]

Shannon, I think most everyone "understands" the value of outcrossing, it's easy to point a finger, but sometimes littermate or back to parent breedings are a nessesarry evil to get recessive genes going or keep them going in a collection. That said, outcrossing does have long term value and I think at least 90% of my breedings this year are unrelated outcrossing pairs even my red-sided snow is being outcrossed to a local Iowan LTC, however I don't have a lot of options if I want to keep the silver easterns going and a morph that cool is worth it, eventually of course outcrossing silver stuff will be on the menu, in fact I may be doing that this year but if I were to do that I would not tell anyone what the pairings were, that would be top secret of course

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Shannon, I think most everyone "understands" the value of outcrossing, it's easy to point a finger, but sometimes littermate or back to parent breedings are a nessesarry evil to get recessive genes going or keep them going in a collection. That said, outcrossing does have long term value and I think at least 90% of my breedings this year are unrelated outcrossing pairs even my red-sided snow is being outcrossed to a local Iowan LTC, however I don't have a lot of options if I want to keep the silver easterns going and a morph that cool is worth it, eventually of course outcrossing silver stuff will be on the menu, in fact I may be doing that this year but if I were to do that I would not tell anyone what the pairings were, that would be top secret of course

Jeff, I think you read a bit too literally into what I was saying. That wasn't an attempt at pointing fingers! I wasn't talking about "us" garter keepers who actually know what we are doing and are trying to preserve a trait's integrity.... and are actively breeding for select traits. I know as much as the next person that line breeding has to be done in order to start a new morph, or to refine a certain look, and that's perfectly fine. I meant how when people keep doing it, over and over for many generations... the snakes that are passed around the trade again and again, commonly, like the albino checkereds... they are so common, everyone has them, just to have them, and everyone just breeds sibling to sibling and kind of passes it on. It's not intentional, but it has become pretty evident that that's what has happened. Line breeding for a select trait and to strengthen that trait is different, because I know none of us would ever take two sibs, breed them, then breed sibs from that litter, then breed sibs from that litter, so on and so forth. Since albino checkereds are so common, thats what happens to them because they are cheap and people usually will buy a pair of babies, grow them up, breed them, and then sell those offspring in pairs to the next guy, who does the same thing! Nobody realizes how far it has gotten till the upside down thing starts showing up regularly. That's where I was getting at...

As for silvers, I love them, they are awesome for sure... I myself have been tempted but I have no interest in them until a stronger line of them is on the ground... it's such a weak gene... who knows why... I really hope that eventually, it works out. But as for secret pairings... that is silly! Lol... I don't understand why there would be a need to keep pairings a secret?! Not trying to poke the bear... I just genuinely don't get it... I don't ever intend to start being all secretive about my hobby! I know all those crazy ball python people and retic people do that kind of stuff... but they are also always at each others throats.... sometimes I just want to tell them all to go sit in the corner for a time out. I hope that garters NEVER ever go down that road... they won't though, because it takes a special kind of person to do what we do.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm sure he will .... not sure albino x albino is the best choice for pairing though. Met a couple of 'upside' down albino checkereds from such pairings in my time (neurological issues).

May be due to a narrow gene pool in your part of the world. It does happen sometimes here too but with frequent outcrossing it can be mostly avoided. We do have the luxury here of crossing CB albinos with WC normals, then producing albinos from the hets. Nothing wrong with albino X albino necessarily. Seems more likely that problems like that will happen with closely related snakes. If the two albinos you're breeding together were the result of separate breedings of outcrossed hets, instead of being "family" then you shouldn't have a problem.

In other words, you really need to be very diligent about outcrossing albino checkereds. Every other generation or so, you should cross an albino with a far from related het or normal. It takes more time but you'll get healthier offspring and better fertility.

[ConcinusMan]

the snakes that are passed around the trade again and again, commonly, like the albino checkereds... they are so common, everyone has them, just to have them, and everyone just breeds sibling to sibling and kind of passes it on. It's not intentional, but it has become pretty evident that that's what has happened. Line breeding for a select trait and to strengthen that trait is different, because I know none of us would ever take two sibs, breed them, then breed sibs from that litter, then breed sibs from that litter, so on and so forth. Since albino checkereds are so common, thats what happens to them because they are cheap and people usually will buy a pair of babies, grow them up, breed them, and then sell those offspring in pairs to the next guy, who does the same thing! Nobody realizes how far it has gotten till the upside down thing starts showing up regularly. That's where I was getting at...

But as for secret pairings... that is silly! Lol... I don't understand why there would be a need to keep pairings a secret?! Not trying to poke the bear... I just genuinely don't get it... I don't ever intend to start being all secretive about my hobby! I know all those crazy ball python people and retic people do that kind of stuff... but they are also always at each others throats.... sometimes I just want to tell them all to go sit in the corner for a time out. I hope that garters NEVER ever go down that road...

I couldn't agree more with all of that^^^. I think it's bullship that we don't have more transparent breeding going on. I might even go so far as to say we need a pedegree system, even if it's unofficial. Personally I have already asked a lot of questions trying to piece together how closely related my radixes are. It's a small world. It would be nice to know if you buy babies, who their ancestors are at least two generations back. Is that so hard? If everyone did this, we can avoid inbreeding. NO SECRET breedings dammit. We need transparency. Pedegree dogs have it and we don't see them running around sideways and cross eyed when we know their ancestry and do not inbreed them.

It is already starting to get like "those crazy ball python and retic people" to some degree. Now, we aren't paying a year's salary or more for a stinkin' snake so not quite as crazy but still...

I won't name names this time but there are a few people who are driving it this direction. I don't want to say it's greed. Seems more like they have invested a lot of time and effort and want to get a return and protect that investment. but if they are selling the offspring of their prized breeders to several other people at a premium and nobody is talking, guess what's going to happen? Those people will inbreed their purchased pair, or siblings from separate litters (but same parents) that someone else bought... etc. Still inbreeding.

It's better for the hobby, better for the snakes and better for everyone if we are more open and honest about where our snake really come from. Too dang many people inbreeding them, many of them not knowing it, and we are seeing bad things happen.

Every time I hear someone say "my albino so-and-so threw slugs, kinks, stills, sideways" etc.. it's halfway expected and not surprising. Shouldn't be that way.

[Chondro788]

Very good points and I'm glad we can all talk about this subject as it is important. In the photo above of my checkered group, those are all unrelated to my knowledge. The normal is WC, and the albinos are all from seperate people, except the big albno and the male, but the guy who sold them to me told me they were not siblings, nor mother/son. I do hae other projects working were I will be line breeding, but as stated above it is a necessary evil. Its also a reason I have been buying up alot of nice looking "normal" females to breed into these morphs. Like Shannon said, garters take a certain type of person.

[Chondro788]

Richard,
The pedigree idea is cool, and if you want to ta a good look at people in the reptile industry who do it well, look at the Chondro Coalition. People like Greg Maxwell, Rico Walder, Trooper Walsh, ect. have been doing this for years and can trace some chondros back several generations if not more by now. I used to breed chondros and had one whos grandmother was brought into the US in something like 1977!!

As for secret projects, I have always been on the fence with this idea. There is the idea that we are all friends and should not have secrets, but then again if you are working to produce a new combo morph, and have spent alot of time in deciding which direction to go, whats wrong with surprising everyone with a new cool snake? I don't know, just my two cents worth...