This is a 1st for me... never a reptile.

[Stefan-A]

I disagree, but then again, so do the biologist that are doing the classifying.

On what basis?

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry Stefan, I think you were saying that there are only 2 in the link I provided. Go back and see my edit. It might answer your question.

[ConcinusMan]

This is the best photo I can find on the web of a willamette valley variation of the "mountain garter". This photo is not really a good representation of the willamette valley "mountain garter". IMHO, the snakes found there are not mountain garters at all. They have a limited range and are morphologically different than mountain garters found elsewhere. I think they qualify as a subspecies of their own based on range and differences. Sorry I don't have a better pic. Like I said, limited range and not very many photos of them on the web. Heck, as long as people have known about the blue anery concinnus, (decades) have you ever really seen a picture of them anywhere until I uploaded them? No. No photos. Again, limited range and nobody bothered to upload photos of them.

I'm not being boastful. I'm just stating a fact. The Willamette Valley T. elegans is so different, and so limited in range, I challenge you to find more photos. They just aren't out there.

Oh, hey, I just notice in that link I posted about T. elegans' found in the Northwest...

"Notes: There are 3 distinct variations of this snake widely recognized in our area."

Well, there ya go.

[nomoreposs]

...Heck, as long as people have known about the blue anery concinnus, (decades) have you ever really seen a picture of them anywhere until I uploaded them? No. No photos. Again, limited range and nobody bothered to upload photos of them.

+1: ..considering the first Google search resulted in ur avatar lol: Field Herp Forum • View topic - prettiest snake

[ConcinusMan]

That was posted very recently too. Long after I made my avatar.

[reptile65]

...Where're you at exactly, Reptile65?

I live permanently in Westminster but I go to school in Fort Collins.

[ConcinusMan]

If anyone has this book, (reptiles of the northwest) or has a chance to check it out. Take a good look at the Willamette Valley variation of T. elegans. Stunning and very different. I suppose I get my old scanner out of the closet, install the drivers and such and scan it for you all. Maybe I will do that.

Honestly, many people have never seen that T. elegans. I used to visit the area where they are from some years ago and was flabbergasted to find them, but never really knew at the time, what kind of garter snake they were (couldn't ID them in any book or find a picture of them anywhere) until I bought that book recently.

They bothered enough to describe the blue anery concinnus in that book, but didn't add a picture.

[ConcinusMan]

OK, took some doing but I got the scanner working. Here's the pic. Willamette Valley variation of T. elegans elegans. It looks nothing like any T.e. elegans I've seen elsewhere. Limited range and specimens in that area are pretty morphologically distinct and fairly consistent so I don't understand why they are lumped in with the rest and called mountain garters. (T.e. elegans, a subspecies of the Western Terrestrial Garter Snake) They just don't look like T.e. elegans found anywhere else that I've seen, hence the label "Willamette Valley variation"

[Stefan-A]

It looks nothing like any T.e. elegans I've seen elsewhere. Limited range and specimens in that area are pretty morphologically distinct and fairly consistent so I don't understand why they are lumped in with the rest and called mountain garters.

Perhaps because they aren't genetically distinct?

[ConcinusMan]

Could be, but I was thinking that all that was needed was range and morph distinctions to make them qualify as a separate subspecies.

I mean, I couldn't even ID this snake at all when I was finding them. They looked nothing like any garter in any book I could find. I was leaning toward elegans but just wasn't sure. Turns out that's exactly what they are. Seems to me like they should be their own subspecies. It's not like this is just a color/pattern variation within a variable population. ALL of them looked like this in that area.