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  1. #11
    Forum Moderator infernalis's Avatar
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    Glad it's panning out.

  2. #12
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    Thinkin' 'bout keeping one of those orange stripe males. They are very pretty. All of them are nice and calm and don't mind handling too.

    I kinda like that white 3-stripe one too. Pretty cool.

    At any rate, can't keep every cool looking snake I find. If I keep any, it will be just one.

  3. #13
    Forum Moderator Stefan-A's Avatar
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    Quote Originally Posted by ConcinnusMan View Post
    The entire population is in immediate danger.
    Judging by the map, it seems to me that the population has been doomed for a long time now. Is it in immediate danger? No. Immediate would be when it's in danger of being eradicated within the next few seconds, minutes or hours.

    Just out of curiosity, what are the methods by which ordinary citizens can influence land use over there?

  4. #14
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan-A View Post
    Judging by the map, it seems to me that the population has been doomed for a long time now. Is it in immediate danger? No. Immediate would be when it's in danger of being eradicated within the next few seconds, minutes or hours.
    And days don't count I suppose? Like I said, the bulldozers were hard at work and I took a look this morning and they've made a lot of "progress" in destroying that small patch of habitat. From the looks of it, it will all be gone within a day or two. Anyway, why all the critisism? Just curious. I mean, what's wrong with I did? I think I saved those 8 snakes from certain doom so what's the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan-A View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what are the methods by which ordinary citizens can influence land use over there?
    Well, I can tell you that this entire situation with the airport closing was at least in part influenced by citizens. When the area was rural, having the airport there was no big deal. But the last few years it was open, businesses and residents had airplanes buzzing just feet overhead. And twice, airplanes crashed. Once into heavy traffic, and once into a commercial building. In the late 70's and early 80's airplanes crashed into trees and empty fields. Those are gone now and the only place for a plane to go down is into developed and populated areas.

    I'm not saying that airplanes crash here all the time, or often, but the main reason for closing it was airplanes coming in to land, or take off, barely clearing power lines and buzzing right over people's homes.

    For the most part however, I'd say we don't have any say in the matter. My house was just annexed to the city recently. Of course, I don't have any choice in the matter and now the city quotes to me what I can, and can't do on my property. Before, I could burn debris and park an RV on my lawn if I wished to. Can't do any of that anymore. RV's must be parked on "improved surfaces" and there's no burning in city limits.

    Oh, and those [insert plural expletive here] fined me for cutting down one of trees in my own yard. Apparently, you need a permit in the city. Ridiculous.

  5. #15
    T. radix Ranch guidofatherof5's Avatar
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    If a citizen went before the City Council or other governing body with a request to halt construction because of Garter Snake habitat being lost or any other animal habitat being lost they would be laughed at.
    Progress comes before them.
    Noting that if it involved an endangered or Fed. protected species you may get them to look but only if it was substantiated buy a Government agency.
    Steve
    5 awesome kids!
    Emmy, Kale, Molly, Gabby, Hailee
    They are not just snakes. They're garter snakes.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/thamnophis14?feature=mhee

  6. #16
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    I got news for you. They wouldn't be laughed at, they would be ignored, which is pretty much what happens around here regardless of the reason for the request.

  7. #17
    Never shed tennfan56's Avatar
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    I really think what you are doing is great. In "immediate" danger or not, those snakes have no future in that area. And also if you save any more, I wouldn't mind taking a few in.
    Wanted: All Easterns and Adult Male Checkered.

  8. #18
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    I'm going back then. It's not far and shouldn't take more than an hour or so. I'll see if I can find some more.

  9. #19
    Forum Moderator Stefan-A's Avatar
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    Quote Originally Posted by ConcinnusMan View Post
    And days don't count I suppose? Like I said, the bulldozers were hard at work and I took a look this morning and they've made a lot of "progress" in destroying that small patch of habitat. From the looks of it, it will all be gone within a day or two. Anyway, why all the critisism? Just curious. I mean, what's wrong with I did? I think I saved those 8 snakes from certain doom so what's the problem?
    All the criticism? The main thing I've criticized, was the idea of relocating them to another population and you chose against doing it. By the way, population is a broad term, but I did mean a population that indeed has a significant level of reproductive isolation in relation to this population. That would mean a distance that is longer than a snake would migrate and drawing a limit at obstacles that they can't cross.

    The main reason why I don't like the idea of catching animals "for their own good", is that it's very easy to do wildlife a disservice even with the best intentions. A second reason is that I have run into people, who use events like this as an excuse for catching animals, especially protected ones and keeping them as pets. I'm not suggesting that it's what you're doing here, but those who would do it, will without a doubt have a little lightbulb go off in their heads when they find out about this.

  10. #20
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    Re: Another snake den being destroyed

    I understand then. I honestly don't think it would hurt a dang thing to move them a mile or two east to a more suitable habitat where other garters currently live relatively free of any immediate danger, however, there is a potential there to do the new population some kind of harm so no matter how slight that potential is, I'd rather adopt them out because there is no way for me to know if I did the new population any harm. It is my opinion, and I'm not the only one, (others have PM'd me) that all this talk of depleting resources and introducing pathogens is a bunch of garbage. Nothing personal toward you but I think I know the local snakes a bit better. You've never even seen one in the wild. If I were to move them, it would only be a mile or two east to a population that has only been separated in recent years by development. I also don't agree that the population was doomed simply because they are surrounded by development. They've been there, in that situation for more than decade and seem to be doing just fine on that patch of land. They have everything they need there to sustain a modest population. I've found small populations of this species in small empty lots in the middle of big cities surrounded by old development.

    Also, I don't need a blasted excuse to collect a few NW garters. If I wanted to do that, I'd just do it. They are so dang common I could seriously collect a thousand of them and not even make a noticeable impact. Seriously. And in spite of the laws on paper, the State of WA doesn't give a darn one hoot if someone wants to scoop up a bunch of T. ordinoides and keep them as pets and certainly would give a hoot about me saving a few from this doomed location. They would have a problem if I was collecting hundreds or thousands of them and selling them off for profit but that is not the case here.

    I think we can agree on two things here.

    #1, those snakes would likely be dead or homeless within a few days, forced to cross streets and parking lots in search of cover. To make matters worse, it's nearly time to brumate. It's already beginning to freeze overnight in some areas and this morning was dang near at freezing when I got up. So, no dens or habitat, wandering around in hopes of shelter for winter is no place for a snake to be. Agreed?

    #2 I could just let them die like so many others before and affect nothing. It probably wouldn't hurt a dang thing to let them die. The species is certainly under no threat of extinction. But it also won't hurt a dang thing to save a few and send them to caring keepers to live their lives in captivity. Agree?

    Heck, I was going to go back today but we're having a very odd weather event. It went from dang near freezing this morning to hotter than heck very quickly, windy and extremely low humidity. Desert air is being funneled from the east side through the channel of the Columbia River Gorge. Bad time to find garters unfortunately. I do have the 8 of them. They are fine snakes and will make good pets. Just not for me. Lord knows I have enough snakes. I'm actually working on reducing the numbers a bit, at least for the near foreseeable future.

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