Rethinking Food; Eartworms are not native to Northern US and Canada

[drache]

let's not forget that this European invasion supposedly pushed a native worm species South and West
so why not just assume that the garters just ate said native worm species before?

[Stefan-A]

I often wonder where the idea that earthworms are nutritionally deficient came from? Everything I've ever heard, read, or found online points to them being a good food source for many animals. For example here's part of an abstract about the Nutritive value of earthworms:

Abstract:
The chemical compositions of the earthworm Eisenia fetida, its casts and body fluids were investigated and compared with those of a variety of common foods and animal feeds. Nutrient analyses showed that Eisenia fetida meal has a high protein content in the range of 54.6 to 71.0% dry matter. The protein content and amino acid composition were close to those of fish meal and eggs, and higher than cow milk powder and soyabean meal. Casts of E. fetida had a protein content of 7.9% dry matter, similar to that of maize meal, and hence earthworm casts could be used not only as an excellent organic fertilizer, but also for partial replacement of maize meal or wheat bran in animal diets. Earthworm body fluids contained 9.4% protein and 78.79 free amino acids per litre and were rich in vitamins and minerals, in particular iron (Fe). Our nutrient analyses suggest that the earthworm (Eisenia fetida) could be an excellent protein supplement for animal feed and human food.

From here: Nutritive value of earthworms. | Sun ZhenJun | Ecological implications of minilivestock: potential of insects, rodents, frogs and snails | Science Publishers, Inc.

I think if anything we underestimate their value. There are tribes of people that eat earthworms for food (look up "Noke" as an example)

There's two things in that text that I'd like to highlight:
1. could be an excellent protein supplement
2. could be an excellent protein supplement

I don't think it's necessary to explain the implications.

[ssssnakeluvr]

earthworm Eisenia fetida



these are the toxic red wigglers right? not a good thing to feed to snakes.

[tspuckler]

Europeans have been keeping and breeding American garters for decades. I'm under the impression that they're feeding their snakes European fish and worms.

What the nutritional value of something is isn't really debatable. It can be broken down and analyzed. To imply worms are somehow "junk food" without having a nutritional analysis comparing them to other foods isn't really saying anything valid.

I understand your theory, but the fact is people have been raising and breeding garter snakes on store-bought nightcrawlers and worms that they find in their yards for years - and not only that, for generations of snakes. If these food sources were somehow deficient, then hobbyists wouldn't be successful keeping and breeding their garter snakes.

[Stefan-A]

Europeans have been keeping and breeding American garters for decades. I'm under the impression that they're feeding their snakes European fish and worms.

Primarily fish and mice.

What the nutritional value of something is isn't really debatable. It can be broken down and analyzed. To imply worms are somehow "junk food" without having a nutritional analysis comparing them to other foods isn't really saying anything valid.

As with any positive claim, evidence is needed for both positions (safe/unsafe).

I understand your theory, but the fact is people have been raising and breeding garter snakes on store-bought nightcrawlers and worms that they find in their yards for years - and not only that, for generations of snakes. If these food sources were somehow deficient, then hobbyists wouldn't be successful keeping and breeding their garter snakes.

How many controlled studies have been made? That's the real question here. It's easy to say "I've been doing this for twenty years" and not realize that the average lifespan has been halved, or that certain illnesses or deformations among offspring are significantly more frequent.

I'm not saying it's the case here, but that's the problem with simple anecdotes from veteran keepers. They are unreliable and biased.

[Selkielass]

As for where I got the Idea worms were junk food- it was from a Veterinarian who treated snakes, reptiles and turtles. They told me that worms were very incomplete nutritionally, and what nutrition they had was highly dependent on what they had been eating recently.

Commercial worm breeders, like people who commercially rase fish, cattle or any other commodity are going to feed their animals as cheaply as they are able to do and still have a product acceptable to the majority of their customers.

We all know feeder goldfish are junk nutritionally. People who feed their reptiles crickets gut load the cricket to ensure proper nutrition. Wild caught worms probably have a pretty decent load of good stuff in their guts (Depending on food source availablity.) Trusting bait worms to be full of nutrition? I don't think so.

I don't argue that Garters wouldn't eat worms where and when they are available- I just think, based on the fact that earth worms *were not available to garters* over large areas of North America for several thousand years, that other food sources probably play a much larger role in their diets than we have led ourselves to believe. (Native worms did remain available in southern areas. no doubt.)

'Junk food' was, I must admit, a poorly chosen phrase, but it was the phrase used by the vet who lectured me *hard* as a youngster about feeding turtles an all worm and goldfish diet. Here is a better analogy- steak. Yummy, high in protien, but not a healthy diet all by itself, even for carnivores.

Dogs, cats and other predators depend on a lot of other nutrients from their prey, more than just bones for calcium. Pet owners who feed their animals 'Biologically appropriate raw foods' swear that the organ meats and stomach contents drastically improve their pets health. (Tho the matter is subject to *tons* of debate and ongoing research.)

Most cats and dogs do well on cheap waste meat products, and have done so for many generations. Most garter snakes can, I believe, do well on pretty simple diets with occasional supplementation. I also believe that better, more appropriate nutrition could improve our pets health, and that the easy availability and eager acceptance of of night crawlers European worms has led us to believe they are a larger portion of our snakes natural diet than they may actually be.

You disagree? Cool! Come up with some research to back up your gut feeling.
I've found this evidence that worms may be, or may have been less important to Northern garters than is widely believed, but I have not found any info on research examining the stomach contents of wild snakes or even numbers showing brumation mortality in wild snakes. I don't have access to these sorts of research materials, but they are probably out there somewhere if someone goes looking.

If they aren't there, perhaps some younger person will be inspired to do the research- I see lots of potential for great research papers or even thesis material in this and related areas.

[tspuckler]

...but that's the problem with simple anecdotes from veteran keepers. They are unreliable and biased.

This whole conversation is "unreliable and biased." There have been no studies of average lifespan of wild snakes vs. captive bred ones. There have been no studies on which for sources are better or if any are nutritionally complete.

Sometimes "simple anecdotes from veteran keepers" is all the information there is to draw conclusions from. If you want to disregard them, that's your prerogative. But I've always thought that was the idea behind forums such as this one - for people to share their experiences.

[Stefan-A]

This whole conversation is "unreliable and biased." There have been no studies of average lifespan of wild snakes vs. captive bred ones. There have been no studies on which for sources are better or if any are nutritionally complete.

And that's no reason to assert that they are nutritionally complete. Or to have faith that they are.

Sometimes "simple anecdotes from veteran keepers" is all the information there is to draw conclusions from.

The problem is that it's not information. It's gut feeling. Speculation. At best, it's misleading. The human brain is not an accurate recording device and personal bias is a well-known problem.

[tspuckler]

And that's no reason to assert that they are nutritionally complete. Or to have faith that they are.

When did I indicate that they were nutritionally complete?
When did I indicate that anyone should have faith in anything?

The problem is that it's not information.

Really? Someone relating their experiences isn't providing information?
You have a very different defination of "information" than I do.

It's gut feeling. Speculation. At best, it's misleading.

So if someone raised garter snakes for several generations on earthworms, you'd call that "gut feeling. Speculation" and (my favorite) "At best, misleading." What's so misleading about it?

The human brain is not an accurate recording device and personal bias is a well-known problem.

Dude, no one claimed that the brian was a recording device.

I offered up my experiences and opinions. What's your problem? People do the same thing on this forum all the time.

I indicated two things in my post:

1) If you do not know the nutritional components of various food items, it's not really valid to consider one of those food items "junk food."

2) People feed their garter snakes food items that aren't necesarily native to the areas where gater snakes live.

Do you want to duscuss that, or do you just want to continue to make up your own definitions to words and misprepresent what I said in my post?

[Selkielass]

When did I indicate that they were nutritionally complete?
<snipped>
1) If you do not know the nutritional components of various food items, it's not really valid to consider one of those food items "junk food."

<snipped>

To clarify- I'm the one who used the term 'junk food' and as I stated before, it was probably a poorly chosen term, but it was the term used by the Vet who was scolding me (A teenager) for feeding too many worms to my turtles.

Please see my previous comment (The excessively long one) for further clarification.
My apologies for using an unintentionally inflammatory term.
I hope we can return to healthy discussion and friendly debate here.