Substrate

[ConcinusMan]

As for frozen fish, I'm so paranoid about thiaminase I stick to trout or salmon fillets and just cut them into worm sized strips and freeze them skin on & all. Then I'll just defrost enough for the feeding and cut into bite sized pieces to avoid food battles, and sprinkle a little multivitamin with B1 on them. I had been using the gelatin suspensions but found that I didn't need to, mine all will eat the fish with vitamins sprinkled on so it saves me from having to make the stuff.

The problems I run into with silversides is the confusion on proper ID. There are fish they commonly call silversides which are actually smelt & also silversides that aren't smelt. Pond smelt are fine but other smelt aren't... So to be safe I've avoided them so far. One of the grocers here gets in nice big cheap bags of whole small silversides & smelt (with no species labeled) but without knowing exactly what species they are I don't want to risk it. There's too much overlap with the common names

I know the substrate thread turned into yet another feeding discussion, but I guess that's how conversations go.

There's really no need to get paranoid over thiaminase containing fish. You simply want to avoid them, steer clear, if you will. A snake, that gets a varied diet of foods containing plenty of B1 and calcium is not likely to suffer from the dreaded disease if it gets a gut full of thiamnase-laden fish now and then. It was whole frogs, night crawlers, tadpoles, (all found plentiful in the habitat where I got my concinnus) and yes, even red snapper and goldfish when I didn't know any better. The snakes also got a powdered vitamin supplement containing plenty of thiamine about once a month.

They lived 20 years and reached about 3-3.4 feet. Never saw any symptoms. Unless you're feeding them almost exlusively on strips of fish meat and worms, you really don't need to go all out on the vitamins. Overdosing can do much harm.

If your snake eats pinkes, and you have a good source, then there's really no need to supplement their lighter meals of fish and worms at all.

I wouldn't be paranoid about an occasional "bad" fish in their diet but I would certainly avoid it if possible.

[Spankenstyne]

I'm a big believer in less is more when it comes to supplementing, not going all-out at all.

As for the thiaminase laden fish it's more to do with wanting a good source of smaller whole fish to use & rotate in as one of my fish staples for the fish portions, which is why I avoid the unknown ones. I was mainly pointing out that it's unfortunate that "silversides" can refer to both safe and unsafe fish that share the same common name at times.

As for rodents I infrequently offer my garters rodents. Maybe once a month. I know that some feed them exclusively, but my personal belief is that too much rodent in their diet isn't healthy for most garter species.

[Spankenstyne]

As for the original topic on substrate, I use aspen chip. I feed all mine in their enclosures & never have had any issues. They're smart enough for the most part to not eat the chips, if they happen to swallow the odd one it's not a problem. I find they just push out any that get near or in the mouth.
I've kept hundreds of snakes of dozens of species over more than 20 years on shaving & chip type substrates (some soils too) and have never had a case of impaction. I find if they're healthy, well hydrated and have access to a temp gradient you shoudn't see any problems with a bit of substrate getting on the food, it tends to be an overstated concern.

I guess it's not much different than my worries about giving my snakes thiaminase laden fish though haha..

[Nafun]

My ball is on astroturf, he eats inside. My other snakes all have their own feeding tubs, because they're on aspen.

My wife and I tried to breed mice for snake food and found it very, very hard. Most mice you find in pet stores are so inbred they're sterile. We managed to produce 1 litter out of 5 females and one male. She killed and ate all of them even though she was on a high protein pregnancy food blend.

Now we breed gerbils and rats for snake food. Gerbil's are much, much easier to breed than mice, and their pinks aren't much bigger. Only problem with gerbils is you can't just have 1 male and 89123123 females. They're not harem breeders, you need a male/female bonded pairs to keep em happy.

We just started a guppy/platy breeding tank to feed our new turtles, and to feed the garters we're getting this summer. They were recommended as being low in thiaminase. (Until they get big enough to start taking bluegill.)

We started raising our own rodents for feeders because it's 30 minutes to the nearest pet store, and they only have pinkie mice, and adult mice when they have anything at all. Ordering rats online at $150/pop was a hassle, and expensive. It's also nice to be able to harvest a rodent that's the exact right size for your snake, and present it freshly killed.

Granted, raising 4 different kinds of prey animals is kind of a hassle as well, but care for them just gets added to the reptile room upkeep routine.

I brought up the possibility of starting a cockroach colony yesterday and got a wifely veto.

[ConcinusMan]

I have emailed the companies of the two brands I find at petco.

Ocean Nutrition and San Fransisco brand "Sally's Silversides" to find out the latin name of the fish they both sell. I keep hearing things like "Only pond smelt are safe" well, pond smelt are from the arctic. These fish they sell as silversides at petco are smelt. Plain and simple. Just like the ones that can be netted on the west coast U.S.A.. Now the debate is, do they contain thiaminase or not? Just like the goldfish I fed my garters for years with no issues, other people have been using these silversides or smelt, or whatever you want to call them, for years and have had no problems.

I hope they respond with an answer soon.

[ConcinusMan]

I feed all mine in their enclosures & never have had any issues. They're smart enough for the most part to not eat the chips I've kept hundreds of snakes of dozens of species over more than 20 years on shaving & chip type substrates (some soils too) and have never had a case of impaction. I find if they're healthy, well hydrated and have access to a temp gradient you shoudn't see any problems with a bit of substrate getting on the food, it tends to be an overstated concern

The threat is real. It is not an overstated concern. Feeding garters sticky food in their enclosure is ill advised. Some substrates such as coconut fiber aren't really a problem but I would still prefer to avoid letting them swallow it. But if they were to swallow something like a fir bark chip, or a dreaded corncob fragment, it wouldn't be good.

I too would not be concerned with feeding a whole adult rodent to a mostly rodent eating snake on top of aspen shavings. A little of that is not going to hurt a snake like that.

[infernalis]

I have lost too many snakes to swallowed substrate, I feel much better feeding them outside the cage.