Surprise Birth

[ScimitarX]

Firstly, let me explain the situation, because its a bit weird.


This past year I have been living in Germany with my boyfriend, so I left my Garters in the care of my family. My sister went in to clean, feed etc while i was unavailble. In this time I had one tank in which i housed 3 snakes 1 female Infernalis, 1 female eastern black neck and 1 presumed female oregon red spot. They have been housed like this for a good few years with no problems, no mating or anything.


I have now been back in England a month and have been able to see my snake again. Now, the oregon red spotted passed away a few weeks before my return, my sis said it went off it food for no apparent reason and lost weight rather quickly. Note that the other 2 snakes housed in the same tank are fine.

Ok, now onto the title of thread. My infernalis has had babies, 2 very nice live one, 3 stillborn and 3-4 jelly beans. All babies look exactly like her. The only question is, the father. I am presuming the red spotted that died was actually a male and not a female like i thought/was told when i got them. The blackneck is a definite female as i checked today after seeing the babies.

Its just weird how theyd been kept togther for so long and nothing like this has ever happened before.

anyhow enough blabbing. I'll just be happy that ive got 2 gorgeous babies to care for now


baby 1





baby 2




stillborns





mother

[bkhuff1s]

Wow what a striking mother. Feel free to send the babies to me

[mustang]

wow hybrid? dont hearbout this too much on this site... guess the babies are infernalis and het for red spotted lol...well id love to hear what happens if you ever breed thees offspring with another infernalis and see what pops out!

[BUSHSNAKE]

it would be interesting to see the babies when theyre adults.

[drache]

congrats to the babies, Claire
I'll be curious to see what they grow into, but frankly, some concinnus have a lot of infernalis looks, and it'll be hard to tell anything

well id love to hear what happens if you ever breed thees offspring with another infernalis and see what pops out!

not likely, and I'm too tired right now to explain why I don't think Claire will pursue this

[ConcinusMan]

wow hybrid? dont hearbout this too much on this site... guess the babies are infernalis and het for red spotted lol...well id love to hear what happens if you ever breed thees offspring with another infernalis and see what pops out!

Not a hybrid- an intergrade.

Actually, as you go south through the range of T.s. concinnus, and get close to the range of T.s. infernalis, the snakes in the wild seem to slowly transition from concinnus to infernalis. There's some grey area there where you can't really distinguish them from one another for certain. I guess that's one of the reasons why California decided that infernalis belong in the same group as concinnus, while SF garters are separate. Also, hard-core purist Northwestern herpetoligists say that pure T.s. concinnus is confined to extreme SW washington and NW oregon. Any found outside those areas exhibiting traits of both, must not be "pure" or true to either subspecies. I guess they have to draw a line somewhere.

It really isn't surprising that your infernalis would breed with a concinus. They are both T. sirtalis, and I'm sure they do the same in the wild.

That mother shows signs of what I am talking about. She may not be pure infernalis or pure concinnus. She just might have a little of both in herself.

[drache]

when it happens in captivity, I don't think it's an intergrade, regardless of the possibilities in their range

[ScimitarX]

Thanks for the replies guys,

am thinking of holding onto them for awhile to see how they turn out as they grow, but if someone comes along who just wants one as a pet and not for breeding i'll probably let them have one.


The mother came from Alan Francis, she was one of his spare females that he let me have. But yes when looking at there range I can definitely see how intergrading would be possible.


On a side note, it was baby day yesterday as my cat gave birth to 7 kittens last night. So babies all round lol

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for the replies guys,

am thinking of holding onto them for awhile to see how they turn out as they grow, but if someone comes along who just wants one as a pet and not for breeding i'll probably let them have one.

That's good to hear.

[ConcinusMan]

when it happens in captivity, I don't think it's an intergrade, regardless of the possibilities in their range

Yeah, yeah. Details details. My point is, it's not what I would call a hybrid. (two different thamnophis species crossed)