Last Chance to stop the Python and Boa Ban!

[ConcinusMan]

Whoh, what upset her? So now you don't approve of reptile breeders such as scott or anyone else? Didn't you you just get an albino flame from him? I'd have to assume you purchased it and therefor do approve of income from animals. I'm so confused.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Actually whats upset me is something that has nothing to do with snakes or dogs or my hobby buts it's rubbing off in my posts and is the reason I've barely touched the forums in the past few days... So if I am coming off like a royal b**ch... I can assure you I have my reasons Xalso I don't have much time as I'm posting from work on my phone.

actually, my albino flame is from Tom. What I MEANT by that statement is that animals are not for our profit.... We breed because we love them... Not to make money. There is a huge difference between what Scott does and what a puppy mill owner does. So please don't put words into my mouth or make extremely generic statements like that. I won't have fingers pointed at me like that. It's entirely up to everyone what ey do with their animals and we all have our own opinions on it. If someone doesn't like what I have to say we can agree to disagree and go our separate ways.

[WingedWolfPsion]

So, according to this, BHB is a great big snake puppy mill...never mind the fact that the animals are cared for meticulously and are thriving in excellent health?

Reptiles are not mammals, and the practices with dogs and cats cannot be extrapolated to all animals. Dogs and cats require socialization and interaction to maintain their mental health. Reptiles simply require the correct environmental conditions, regular cleaning, and feeding. They don't eliminate anywhere near as often, so they're pretty easy to keep clean. You can care for a LOT of reptiles in the time it would take you to care for a single dog.

Yes, big breeders have less control over where the animals they produce wind up--they wholesale them out to distributors or pet stores. The best you can do with that is pick a good distributor, and good pet stores. That's what I did locally--some of my normal male hatchlings go to a local pet store that is knowledgeable and cares for their animals properly.

I breed these animals to make money. If I simply loved them, I could just buy the few I wanted and never breed them. I don't run a puppy mill (or hatchling mill)--all of the animals are cared for properly, and they receive vet care if they should happen to need it. Anything less would be unethical.

People who breed animals for profit are not all 'puppy mill' owners. There is a vast difference between being too cheap to be ethical, and doing things the right way. You can do things the right way and make just as much or more money than those who are cheap. Healthy animals produce a lot better than sick ones.

This isn't me telling you that you can't have your opinions--this is me telling you why I think your opinions are wrong, which is what often happens when you share opinions with others.

When I send my hatchlings out into the world, they are healthy, feeding well, and are well-started. They're fat, healthy little babies that will thrive for their new owners. This is a huge improvement over the heaps of CH babies imported from Africa, that may or may not do well for an owner. I don't see a problem with this. I include care sheets with all the normals I sell individually. In my opinion, this is doing things the RIGHT way, and improving things in the pet trade as a result.

[ConcinusMan]

I was confused as to what you were trying to say shannon. I guess I'll have to just stay that way. Sorry you're not having a good week, day, whatever. Really.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

So, according to this, BHB is a great big snake puppy mill...never mind the fact that the animals are cared for meticulously and are thriving in excellent health?

Yes... BHB is a giant snake puppy mill(sarcasm). Look... nevermind. you are not getting what I was saying earlier at ALL. I want to just poke my eyeballs out right now with frustration because I DON'T feel like getting into it. And you are taking things out of context and putting words into my mouth. Did I even mention BHB??? no! Did I mention anything about big time snake breeders??? NO! I just simply think that if someone is looking to profit.... animals are not your best option. Because 99 % of people in this world will not always put the animal first, 100% of the time.

You can care for a LOT of reptiles in the time it would take you to care for a single dog.

I know! I've got easily 90 snakes by now.... and that's not counting all the babies I'll be tirelessly tong feeding every. other. day. in a few months.

I could just buy the few I wanted and never breed them. I don't run a puppy mill (or hatchling mill)--all of the animals are cared for properly, and they receive vet care if they should happen to need it.

I don't get why you think I ever said that to begin with. I didn't. It's very clear that you do not own a "hatchling mill". I was merely stating that puppy mills SUCK. But somehow, you have taken that offensively and confused it with me saying that if you breed snakes and make money you run a puppy mill and that you don't properly care for your animals. No that's clearly not what I said. But trust me, I've met far too many people who cut corners. people who don't even KNOW they are cutting corners.

People who breed animals for profit are not all 'puppy mill' owners.

Oh my goodness.... I had no idea!!! No but seriously, come on now, I know that as well as any other sane person. If I were a PETA lunatic, maybe you'd need to say that. These are the kinds of things that are ticking me off a bit because it's coming off like you feel that I am uneducated, or misinformed about this hobby. But we will leave that alone, The real problem is that the "puppy mill" owners... they make ALL of us look bad because as we all know... the government only pays attention to that one bad incident. Not the thousands of good keepers and flawless transactions that occur everyday, nope, but that one time that someone's apartment gets raided and hundreds of sickly animals are removed.

This isn't me telling you that you can't have your opinions--this is me telling you why I think your opinions are wrong, which is what often happens when you share opinions with others.

Right. But in addition you are taking what I have said in all the wrong ways and are twisting my words around in order to make me look like some tree hugging nut job. Which I am NOT. You are making assumptions and are generalizing things in ways that just do not make any sense to me and seeing as you don't know me..... I can forgive you for that. But everyone else on here who DOES know me..... knows that I am not a tree hugging anti-pet trade nutter, and knows what I am all about. You are speaking to me as if I am a PETA robot or something. You are trying to reason with me as if I don't agree with a lot of what you are saying... I'm on your side... remember!?!

When I send my hatchlings out into the world, they are healthy, feeding well, and are well-started. They're fat, healthy little babies that will thrive for their new owners. This is a huge improvement over the heaps of CH babies imported from Africa, that may or may not do well for an owner. I don't see a problem with this. I include care sheets with all the normals I sell individually. In my opinion, this is doing things the RIGHT way, and improving things in the pet trade as a result.

Okay.... good! This is what any good keeper, including myself...does with the offspring of their children (snakes). But the reason we are facing the loss of our hobby today is because for every good keeper there is, there's a scumbag who's making all the right mistakes and is slowly fueling the opposition's fire. The whole reason I work with some really off the wall snakes (like striped keelbacks) and will continue to acquire more off the wall species of natricine is to provide another option for those looking for quality and to lessen the need for more snakes to be taken out of the wild. It will never be a business for me.... it's my passion and what little I do get goes right back into it.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yeah, can't say I agree with that statement. I think what she might have meant is that it's not right to view them ONLY as a source of income. They must also be viewed as living things with feelings and treated humanely and with respect.

Yea. What he said. I wish I saw this post sooner. Would have saved me writing.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I guess it's the notion that breeding for money leads to two things:

1. Neglect or abuse, usually through less than optimal living conditions and overbreeding individual animals. Think: Puppy mills. Naturally, that's not what has to happen and it does not mean that people who don't breed animals for money don't abuse and neglect their animals.

2. Selling to just anybody. The larger the quantities, the bigger the need to "unload". Doesn't mean that occasional breeder don't do this, either

yeeeesssssss. <3

I'm inclined to agree with you on the "designer dog" issue. I am however going to take it a few steps futher and say that the I find the whole idea of purebred dogs both sad and hilarious. When people brag about having a purebred or prize-winning whatever, I really just want to tell them: "No, you have a disfigured, inbred wolf." This can be applied to designer dogs as well. In some cases, the same principle applies to snakes and other reptiles.

I have to be perfectly honest with you Stefan, I agree... I DO think that the whole purebred dog thing is absolutely silly... and when it affects the animal's well being it's not so great... what I mean is how some breeds are especially prone to certain health issues because of their severe disfigurement (English bulldogs and their breathing problems for one, and great danes with their extremely short life spans)

BUT.... for me it came down to this. You have to pick your poison. At least with the purebred thing, most of the breeders and what not, they have some sort of standard! They have expectations and very high standards and they care about their freaking dogs more than themselves. The GOOD breeders, that is. Oh yes... that lady that comes into my store that breeds those hideous chinese cresteds (those half naked tiny little "dog" things)... oh yesss she drives me nuts with her incessant petty little things about all our products and the way she fusses over those dogs.... but in the end what matters is that she loves them so much, and that they are SO healthy and happy because of the way she cares. We cannot say the same for those who are filling the world's pet stores with as many random combinations of dogs as they can make!

[MasSalvaje]

When people brag about having a purebred or prize-winning whatever, I really just want to tell them: "No, you have a disfigured, inbred wolf.".

I vote this the best quote of all time!!!!!!!!!

Stefan, it is too bad that we live half a world apart and will probably never meet in person. I think we would get along you and I.

-Thomas

[WingedWolfPsion]

There are always going to be problems. The question is, how should they be dealt with? Do you punish all of the people who are doing the right thing in order to try to prevent the bad people from having the opportunity to do the wrong thing? Or do you just punish the bad people when they do wrong?

The rule change is about taking away the rights of everyone to transport large snakes with them when they move...and it's being done under the guise of helping to protect the ecosystem. Not only will it not accomplish that goal, but it punishes breeders, and owners who do care about their pets.
This is the kind of legislation we HAVE to fight.
Florida has now passed a ban of the large constrictors, and of Nile Monitors. So the only place in the US where they can legitimately survive in the wild has now prohibited their sale or importation. Why is there a need to alter the Lacey Act?

The Lacey Act is there as means to help protect native wildlife and prevent invasive species from entering into native ecosystems. It's NOT meant to be used as a tool to accomplish ANYTHING else. Even if you think, for some reason, that large snakes should be banned in order to protect people, or protect the snakes--the Lacey Act is the wrong tool to use to accomplish this. We should not support the misuse of a legal act to accomplish some political end it was not intended for.

[drache]

not sure whether this link will work, but it's a little NY Times video about the pythons in the everglades
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/...html?th&emc=th