Is this a garter snake?

[ConcinusMan]

Well shoot. Can't argue with gentic testing to prove relationships between very similar animals. Can't argue with it at all. I did say I was a youngster. I was already well into adulthood when that was written and and DNA analysis was in it's infancy. They had certainly NOT gotten around to testing snakes before I was 18 years old.

So that leaves us with visually apparent differences. I have to admit, if I held a "ribbon" snake in my presence, I would see it as such. I would not mistake it for a "garter" snake. I've seen many garters. I've seen many ribbon snakes. There's a distinct difference even if it's not apparent to the layman or to genetics.

There's a distinct visually apparent difference. I have not seen a single ribbon snake that I could mistake for a garter. If you know what I mean.

[Stefan-A]

So that leaves us with visually apparent differences. I have to admit, if I held a "ribbon" snake in my presence, I would see it as such. I would not mistake it for a "garter" snake. I've seen many garters. I've seen many ribbon snakes. There's a distinct difference even if it's not apparent to the layman or to genetics.

There's a distinct visually apparent difference. I have not seen a single ribbon snake that I could mistake for a garter. If you know what I mean.

Another bunch of garters that don't "look like garters":

Sumichrast's garter snake
Mexican Black-Bellied Garter Snake
Tamaulipan Montane Garter Snake
Southern Durango Spotted Garter Snake
Narrow-Headed Garter Snake
Mexican Pacific Lowlands Garter Snake

Compared to these, T. proximus and T. sauritus DO "look like garters". I could also add several other garters that look a lot more like these two, when comes to body type.

One final note: "ribbon snakes" used to be "ribbon snake".

[ConcinusMan]

OK, OK. I get your point. It's just that generally speaking, here in the USA, a ribbon snake has a different looking head, a longer, thinner body, very distict and solid stripes etc., than a garter does.

Ribbon snakes of the U.S:

"The ribbon snake is a very slender, striped snake, similar in appearance to the garter snake but with a much longer tail. Tail length for the ribbon snake generally accounts for one third or more of total body length."

You see, there it is again. Distinction from garter snakes. And the appearance? Well, it's just different from what we call a garter snake. Almost "whip like" in comparison and always very well defined stripes. Long, gradually tapering and flowing. Just like a ribbon, but nothing like a garter belt. They are called "garter" or "ribbon" snakes for a reason. One looks more like a garter belt, one looks more like a ribbon. Later, in the western US, people encountered striped (or not) snakes that were even more tapered or thin and long. They called them "whip" snakes!

[Stefan-A]

OK, OK. I get your point. It's just that generally speaking, here in the USA, a ribbon snake has a different looking head, a longer, thinner body, very distict and solid stripes etc., than a garter does.

Unfortunately(?), their range doesn't end at the border. As for different body type, you have sirtalis sirtalis "Florida Blue", elegans vagrans and for example scaliger at the other end of the spectrum. Different head shape: ordinoides, butleri, rufipunctatus, brachystoma and scaliger again. Distinct, solid stripes I've seen in elegans, cyrtopsis, atratus, sirtalis annectens and pulchrilatus.

Ribbon snakes of the U.S:

"The ribbon snake is a very slender, striped snake, similar in appearance to the garter snake but with a much longer tail. Tail length for the ribbon snake generally accounts for one third or more of total body length."

You see, there it is again. Distinction from garter snakes. And the appearance? Well, it's just different from what we call a garter snake. Almost "whip like" in comparison and always very well defined stripes.

There it isn't.


edit: The link in your text leads to a page on the COMMON garter snake, in other words T. sirtalis.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh yeah. We could argue.. no wait... debate for the rest of our lives and have a great time doing so!

Nice snake on the cover. Looks like a T. ordinoides to me. Or is it? (just kidding, I'm 100% sure it is)

Forget the link. The link was unintended. It was the text I intended to copy. It leads to "common garter snake" for obvious reasons. Don't get me started on the argument that a T. ordinoides is also a "common" garter snake, as is T. Radix. All garter snakes are common within their range, and garter snakes in general are found in nearly every state in the USA.

If it's any kind of garter snake. Radix, ordinoides, elegans, doesn't matter. It's a garter and they are common.

The snake originally shown in this thread however, is definitely NOT a garter snake.

[Stefan-A]

Forget the link. The link was unintended. It was the text I intended to copy. It leads to "common garter snake" for obvious reasons.

The reason why I brought it up, is that it brings a completely different context to the text you quoted. It highlighted differences between the "ribbon snake" and Thamnophis sirtalis, not differences between "the ribbon snake" and the rest of the genus.

All garter snakes are common within their range, and garter snakes in general are found in nearly every state in the USA.

If it's any kind of garter snake. Radix, ordinoides, elegans, doesn't matter. It's a garter and they are common.

You really shouldn't make statements like that.

[ConcinusMan]

Why not? You really think any one of the three is any less common than the other? (*giggle*)

[Stefan-A]

Why not? You really think any one of the three is any less common than the other? (*giggle*)

Last time I counted Thamnophis taxa, there were 76 of them. IIRC. Not three.

Many populations are locally threatened, declining or extinct.