Another litter!

[snakeman]

Melanistic is dominant over flame.Somebody has already proved it.They esed to sell babies on kingsnake a while back.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I understand what your saying, i should of wrote the melanistic and albino are recessive to the flame and ery...i certainly dont think you could produce a snake that has both flame/ery and melanistic traits...sorry for that

[ConcinusMan]

I wanted some mels too.That means my het albino flame male is actually a double het albino+melanistic flame.thanks guys!

And you're sure about that? No other way this could happen?

[Snakers]

all in one deal i see?

[ConcinusMan]

Let's not forget that some of these labels such as "flame" "snow" and even axanthic/anerythristic do not necessarily reflect what is happening on a biological/cellular level. Most garter breeders use these terms to describe the outward effect of the gene or linage. For example, if it appears anerythristic, it's anery, even though what is happening on a biological/genetic level may vary from species to species. In other words, what might be called anery from one species or ssp, might be called axanthic for another species. I hope you get what I'm saying. Personally, I'm not buying the label "anerythristic" or "axanthic" for some of the plains garters I've seen. They're downright melanistic to me. They have dark pigments where no normal snake would have.

I'm do not believe anyone proved that "flame" is dominant over "melanistic" simply because "flame" seems more of label to me. Might be dominant over whatever gene is involved to produce their "flames" but what if a truly axanthic snake was labeled "melanistic". What then? would it still dominate over "flame" ??? There is no rule that says a certain gene cannot have the effect of higher melanin production AND the effect of reduced or absent yellow/orange/red.

I suppose I could be taking this a bit far. One could take it so far as to call all domestic dogs "wolves". My intention here was to open up the narrow-mindedness of labeled genetic traits in snakes. Kudos to those breeders that use the terms to describe the effect of the gene, just like "brindle" in dogs can apply to any breed but involve completely different sets of genes depending on the breed. When it comes to snakes, I think it's important to provide backround breeding records with such labels. Back it up, don't just paste the label. Provide background and linage details. To me, if I was a serious breeder, that might make an animal worth far more, or far less.

Unfortunately, money/limited space is often a motivating factor that contributes to the confusion. Case in point:

I guess the real question Shannon has is... does the melanistic gene also take away red, rather than just add melanin, although not completely clear yet maybe, there is some slight argueable evidence for that in the """"""snow"""" or as some would prefer to call the melanistic albino.
So Tom, inquiring minds what to know.....do any of the snows show flame orange sides??????????????? Lets see some pics if so, you're killing us man.

I really don't feel like holding on to them to find out.If you want them I will make a sweet deal!

[BUSHSNAKE]

Only an animal with yellow pigment can be Axanthic...only an animal with red pigment can be Anerythristic...can an animal with both yellow and red be both Axanthic and Anerythristic..Yes! The Charcoal Corn Snake morph is both Anery and Axanthic. Do all Anerys look the same, do all Axanthics look the same?....NO. If you have an albino that has red pigment(corn snake)and you wanna create a snow you need an anery, if you have an albino with yellow pigment(ball python)and you wanna create a snow you need an Axanthic. Could a plains garter be Anerythristic, i dont think so,plains garter snakes are not red! Could an Axanthic plains garter be blue in coloration, i think so cuz the population of snakes that the original Axanthic plains garter snake came from are greenish in coloration, if a greenish snake is blue then it must be without yellow pigment...When you breed to snakes together, one a flame and one a melanistic, you get some flames and no melanistics, by definition that makes the flame dominant over the melanistic, in order to get melanistics you need TWO contributing parents. If you wanna say the melanistic is dominant over the flame cuz you cant combine the two traits then that would be also correct...who cares about the "what ifs" so much has already been proven...and check this out, the guy who found the first Axanthic also bred it first and this is what he told me, when he bred the Axanthic to a normal plains he got all normals, but when he bred the Axanthic to the Anerythristic(which also occurs naturally in Illinois)he got half Axanthics and half normals...can mother nature be always fully understood, isnt it the mystery that keeps us attentive?

[ConcinusMan]

Plains garters are not red? Hmm....

[BUSHSNAKE]

No they are not red, that is not a normal plains is it? If that is normal is a non red one anerythristic?can you breed two normals and get a red one?no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ConcinusMan]

Looks normal to me. Normal red phase. Is it any less normal than a dark phase or a light phase? Is it not possible to have an anerythristic red phase? A red phase plains with the pigment missing from the red areas?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Are you kidding? An anery red phase? You said it yourself its a red phase, you must think all the normal ones are anerythristic, does that make sence to you?