cross breeding?

[ConcinusMan]

Bottom line is, people are going to do it whether we agree with it or not! Let's just hope that the majority of them are responsible enough to keep these hybrids out of the wild. I have actually found a few gopher snakes myself that were questionable. I had never even considered that they might be hybrids, or decended from hybrids. Interesting.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Please note I don't own either of these snakes and don't take any credit for their ownership.

I don't want to doubt the crosses (the taiwan/green looks like a total cross), but was this just a verbal account with pictures? The picture of the japanese/corn looks ambiguous (almost like black rat features).

I am not really interested in hybrids in regards to herpetoculture. I am more interested in cladistic trees, and I am always enthralled when I hear of new possibilities that stretch the definitions of ssp., species, family, etc... What dormant genes still have the get-go to cross with a long lost cousin species and create viable reproducing offspring?

I am curious how many of the various hybrids out there are actually fully fertile. Often is the case (a lot of jungle corns for example) where male hybrids end up sterile, thus the female only has the option of reaffirming one species line or the other...

[Brewster320]

I don't want to doubt the crosses (the taiwan/green looks like a total cross), but was this just a verbal account with pictures? The picture of the japanese/corn looks ambiguous (almost like black rat features).

I am not really interested in hybrids in regards to herpetoculture. I am more interested in cladistic trees, and I am always enthralled when I hear of new possibilities that stretch the definitions of ssp., species, family, etc... What dormant genes still have the get-go to cross with a long lost cousin species and create viable reproducing offspring?

I am curious how many of the various hybrids out there are actually fully fertile. Often is the case (a lot of jungle corns for example) where male hybrids end up sterile, thus the female only has the option of reaffirming one species line or the other...

I actually got the pictures of the jap/corn from its onwer. She is a repected member on the rat snake foundation site.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Cool! So, that's a total slap in the face to the definitions of what we call species, genera, and even sub-families!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have seen, in person, held in my hand, a black rat snake x beauty snake cross. I held it for almost ten minutes trying to figure out what the heck it was before a guy told me. And it made sense, it had features of both animals! I would see it as being similar to the ball python x woma python. Rare, but not impossible!

[Brewster320]

I have seen, in person, held in my hand, a black rat snake x beauty snake cross. I held it for almost ten minutes trying to figure out what the heck it was before a guy told me. And it made sense, it had features of both animals! I would see it as being similar to the ball python x woma python. Rare, but not impossible!

Wow that is awesome. You are so lucky, I would love to see that animal in person! That would be amazing.

[Stefan-A]

Cool! So, that's a total slap in the face to the definitions of what we call species, genera, and even sub-families!

Not really new in any way. If you've read The Origin Of Species, Darwin discusses hybrids and among other things their highly variable fertility and the distinction between species and varieties, at length. It's been known for a very long time, probably a lot longer than linnean taxonomy has been used, that the traditional definition of a species is not without exceptions.

Of course, the definition of a species as a group of individuals capable of interbreeding and capable of producing fertile offspring, IS the most concise definition.

[MasSalvaje]

Of course, the definition of a species as a group of individuals capable of interbreeding and capable of producing fertile offspring, IS the most concise definition.

I just wanted to add to your comment Stefan that it also has to do with geographic isolation.

Not that you were saying it but I have heard the argument that two seperate species should be combined into one just because they produce fertile offspring in someones basement somewhere, even though there is zero chance of them running into each other in the wild with out serious human intervention.

-Thomas

[Stefan-A]

I just wanted to add to your comment Stefan that it also has to do with geographic isolation.

Not that you were saying it but I have heard the argument that two seperate species should be combined into one just because they produce fertile offspring in someones basement somewhere, even though there is zero chance of them running into each other in the wild with out serious human intervention.

-Thomas

Indeed. And I definitely wouldn't support that line of reasoning, either.

Often "can reproduce" is also replaced with "will under natural conditions reproduce". Many species will mate and produce hybrids in captivity, even if they generally won't or can't do it in the wild.

[MasSalvaje]

Indeed. And I definitely wouldn't support that line of reasoning, either.

Often "can reproduce" is also replaced with "will under natural conditions reproduce". Many species will mate and produce hybrids in captivity, even if they generally won't or can't do it in the wild.

Well said.

-Thomas