cross breeding?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

there's only one thing that bothers me. If you find a snake that is supposedly a hybrid and/or intergrade in the wild, that's all fine and dandy that you can come to that conclusion. But I see so many people looking at a WC hybrid and labeling it This x That... but the truth is you can't put a label on a snake like that for sure! Unless you are there to witness the lineage of that snake in the making, you absolutely cannot determine it to be a hybrid of two particular species or subspecies. Sure, you can speculate, given the location the snake is found, and the species that regularly inhabit the area, as well as the actual phenotype of the snake, but you still don't ever really know! And labeling that snake anything but "thamnophis hybrid/intergrade" is assuming things and not necessarily at all correct! Sorry... just a little something that has been bothering me for quite some time

[Brewster320]

there's only one thing that bothers me. If you find a snake that is supposedly a hybrid and/or intergrade in the wild, that's all fine and dandy that you can come to that conclusion. But I see so many people looking at a WC hybrid and labeling it This x That... but the truth is you can't put a label on a snake like that for sure! Unless you are there to witness the lineage of that snake in the making, you absolutely cannot determine it to be a hybrid of two particular species or subspecies. Sure, you can speculate, given the location the snake is found, and the species that regularly inhabit the area, as well as the actual phenotype of the snake, but you still don't ever really know! And labeling that snake anything but "thamnophis hybrid/intergrade" is assuming things and not necessarily at all correct! Sorry... just a little something that has been bothering me for quite some time

Never thought of it like that. I know there are some intergrades that are totally obvious but there others, especially thamnophis considering most have just about the same base patterns and/or colors with some variation between subspecies and species, that like you said are impossible to guess just by looking at them. Heres an example of a wild hybrid that I think would be hard to just say "Oh its this x this". I'm putting up it's picture just to see how many people can actually guess it correctly. Theres been DNA test done on a few of these animals so science know what it is, without that though it'd very hard to guess I think other than maybe one of it's parents. Hint: several of these animals have been found in California.

[Stefan-A]

Lampropeltis getula californiae and Pituophis catenifer something.

[mustang]

looks like a gopher snake

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Beautiful picture of the Gopher-King! I have seen pics of this occasional wild hybrid before. Fascinating, since Pituophis will usually end up in the belly of a king.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

there's only one thing that bothers me. If you find a snake that is supposedly a hybrid and/or intergrade in the wild, that's all fine and dandy that you can come to that conclusion. But I see so many people looking at a WC hybrid and labeling it This x That... but the truth is you can't put a label on a snake like that for sure! Unless you are there to witness the lineage of that snake in the making, you absolutely cannot determine it to be a hybrid of two particular species or subspecies. Sure, you can speculate, given the location the snake is found, and the species that regularly inhabit the area, as well as the actual phenotype of the snake, but you still don't ever really know! And labeling that snake anything but "thamnophis hybrid/intergrade" is assuming things and not necessarily at all correct! Sorry... just a little something that has been bothering me for quite some time

I agree that we shouldn't make so many assumptions. In the case of garters, I, personally, often am challenged by trying to identify just the local species, ssp., strains, phases, etc. While I do have a gut feeling about the possibility of hybridization at various localities in my region, the jury is still out to whether or not Mother Nature is just messing with my head. There is still so much we don't know about garters: their migration patterns, those that may vary from the norm (adapting to new environments, alternative prey), especially in light of man continuing to change their world; their frustrating genetics; etc.

Nature abhors a vacuum and evolution spits out new mutations behind our back, when we are not looking. For example, here in Humboldt, we have a new morph of infernalis. In one small secluded area, life-long residents in the area have discovered a blue variant, the likes of which you usually only see further south (i.e. Sonoma County). New genetics mutation? Introduced blue CB? Inbreeding? Change in diet? That last one is something I believe may be a neglected topic, but you are what you eat, right? The bottom line, as mentioned in the qoute, is - you just can't assume.

I am positive a few of the sightings on my website are anomalous; so, what do you name 'em?

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Many of the different generas between other North American Colubrids (Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, and Pituophis). Some of these have even been bred with some of the Asian Rat Snakes in the genus Elaphe which many would actually consider impossible.

I would love a link to any research or proof of North American / Asian crosses.
It appears that the cladistic tree is being rewritten here in NA; it almost sounds like you could call the whole NA group "North American Rat Snakes", although that wouldn't appear applicable to their behaviors, diets, etc. Think convergent evolution when comparing New and Old World snakes!

Last I read in the journals, the one snake that ties kings, milks, gophers, corns, and rats together is the Long-nosed Snake, which, based on cytochrome B analysis, shows it to be the colubrid most closely related to what was the common ancestor of them all!

Still, i have not heard of an NA/Asian hybrid and am curious...

[ConcinusMan]

People in the snake trade are "gobbling up" hets for the weirdest traits in corns, kings, milks, pythons, etc.,

Meanwhile we have people (even garter enthusiasts) completely ignoring pairs for sale (het for, or even showing various traits including anery and amelanistic, melanistic) even though they are not cross bred. Sounds like people who buy garters pretty much want normal, beautiful representations of their garter species or ssp. Am I wrong? seems to be the trend.

[Brewster320]

I would love a link to any research or proof of North American / Asian crosses.
It appears that the cladistic tree is being rewritten here in NA; it almost sounds like you could call the whole NA group "North American Rat Snakes", although that wouldn't appear applicable to their behaviors, diets, etc. Think convergent evolution when comparing New and Old World snakes!

Last I read in the journals, the one snake that ties kings, milks, gophers, corns, and rats together is the Long-nosed Snake, which, based on cytochrome B analysis, shows it to be the colubrid most closely related to what was the common ancestor of them all!

Still, i have not heard of an NA/Asian hybrid and am curious...

I have infact seen pictures of a beauty snake x greenish rat and a japanse rat x corn snake. I think I have them saved some where, I'd have to find them. Japanese Rats x Corns seen the most common OW x NW hybrids, I've seen several pictures of these and people who own them, I've even seen the offspring of one of these snake that was bred back to a corn so it was 1/4 japanese and 3/4 corn. So they are atleast fertile if being bred back to a corn. I'll look for the pictures though.

[Brewster320]

Ok found them, This is the Twainese Beauty x Greenish Rat(Yellow x Black Rat intergrade). I don't know much about this snake, or if its even still alive. If it is it should be around breeding age now.


And this is of the Japnese Rat x Corn. Its a fully mature adult male.


Please note I don't own either of these snakes and don't take any credit for their ownership.