Cross breeding, need help.

[gregmonsta]

beceaus...welll who wouldnt and i thought it would be interesting since all garter & ribons (excluding the indoniesan ones) are all the same family/genus of thamnophis just different individual species. and i loved the way that red spotted and flordia blues look but if i had offspring of the two they would look amazing even if they had only a little of each parent!

but you can find concinnus with a blueish hue

[mtolypetsupply]

beceaus...welll who wouldnt and i thought it would be interesting since all garter & ribons (excluding the indoniesan ones) are all the same family/genus of thamnophis just different individual species. and i loved the way that red spotted and flordia blues look but if i had offspring of the two they would look amazing even if they had only a little of each parent!

I see your point, and I so want a PURPLE garter. So why not work with erythrystic easterns, and florida blue easterns????

If you get a lovely, PURPLE one out of that, LET ME KNOW!!!

Seriously, you can work with the genetics within each subspecies, and the genetics of it aren't difficult to understand.

So the best question in my mind, is what EXACTLY are you looking for in a new, innovative garter??? That question isn't rhetorical, please do answer, there are many knowledgeable folk on here who can point you toward a breeding project you'll LOVE!!!!!

And to the knowledgeable folk, HOW DO I GET MY PURPLE GARTER??? LOL

[gregmonsta]

really? ... try harder! ... oh .... and here's a purple ordinoides (no perverting nature on this one ) ... again, there's no need to turn this into a subspecies breeding orgy.

[Stefan-A]

And to the knowledgeable folk, HOW DO I GET MY PURPLE GARTER??? LOL

Luck or selective breeding.

[ConcinusMan]

Why .... why, why, why? You'll either get a litter that looks like either parent or just an undistinguishable mishmash ... garters are colourful and beautiful as they are. You won't find me intentionally buying any hybrid or subspecies cross.

Don't misunderstand. I wouldn't do it and I'm not planning on it. I totally agree with you and Stefan-A. I was trying to point out (and perhaps clarify what we mean by sub-species) that if they are indeed the same species then there shouldn't be any genetic issues with the offspring. It was my understanding that T. sirtalis are all the same species, regardless of subspecies, and that subspecies amounts to nothing more than race. So, it would be no different than 2 people of different races having offspring. Personally, I have doubts that all sirtalis are indeed the same species, genetically, not catagorically speaking. If I am drawing the wrong parallels let me know.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Personally, I have doubts that all sirtalis are indeed the same species.

I second that.

[adamanteus]

Third.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

They are jut far too diverse, not just looks though, even in their actions! Especially the pickeringii. When I look at my pugets, then look at my easterns... then over at the cali red sideds.... well, you get the idea.

[Stefan-A]

Personally, I have doubts that all sirtalis are indeed the same species, genetically, not catagorically speaking. If I am drawing the wrong parallels let me know.

I have doubts that the species concept itself is valid.

[ConcinusMan]

I guess a line has to drawn somewhere. Approximately 98% of our DNA is present in chimps' DNA. In other words, genetically speaking, we are 98% chimp. It's the other 2% that makes us human; a separate species. Recently extinct (in geologic time, around 30,000 yrs ago) species of our genus HOMO such as Homo erectus are actually in many circles considered a subspecies of Homo sapiens called H. sapiens neandertalensis. Others consider us to be a separate species. There is even some evidence that neanderthals contributed some genes to modern humans prior to leaving africa and evidence that cross breeding did occur at some time and locations.

My point is even if it happened far in the past; cross breeding erectus with sapiens; even though they are considered separated only by subspecies; it's fairly apparent that it would still be considered cross breeding. We now have the fortune of being the only species OR subspecies of Homo left on earth. So, the various human "races" we see on earth amount to nothing but a "form" of the same species as Stefan-A mentioned when speaking of grey wolves compared to modern dogs.

All that said, DNA or RNA mapping of all the so-called sub-species of Thamnophis sirtalis has not been done completely(as far as I know) and for now, I consider the various sub-species of sirtalis to be far enough separated to be treated as seperate species; far enough apart as we are apart from neanderthals even though successful breeding and healthy offspring can be produced by crossing the two.

Don't even get me started on plants. Broccoli and cauliflower and brussel sprouts are considered the same species. All modern lettuce varieties are the same species as inedible wild lettuce and often the two cross breed. All of this just reaffirms my belief that evolution does happen, even if life was created rather than spontaneously generated.