Not new to Thams, but new here!

[Mike Spencer]

Wow thanks everyone for all of the great info. I've been breeding snakes (mostly concinnus garters) and lizards and a few amphibians for many, many years but just as a hobby really so I never learned much about genetics, recessive genes, etc. This has been very informative.

@ Mike Spencer. You know, I never even thought about it. I mean, we have T. sirtalis here (like I said, not very common though) that are NOT concinnus but I really don't know what they are. Or at least, they are sirtalis when using ID keys but lack the coloration/pattern of concinnus, and clearly don't fit any other local candidates' descriptions but do fit descriptions of T. sirtalis supposedly only found in the Puget Sound area. I just know that they are sirtalis and NOT any of the other species we have, and that they are NOT concinnus. I suppose I could be mistaken. That's for sure. It's a mess around here with garters. Some are easy to distinquish such as T. s. concinnus and T. ordinoides, but we also have Thamnophis atratus (usually in huge numbers where they are found) Thamnophis elegans, T. couchii, and those are just a few of the top of my head. Jeez, the list goes on. Even more confusing is some of the one's I listed have subspecies living in the same habitat, and there are many individuals that just aren't described or fit a description. It's confusing, that's for sure. Someone at the University of WA suggested to me that our local concinnus having approximately 30% or so with side stripes and almost no red on the sides/head meant that it was likely to intergrade with other sirtalis' but I just didn't agree for some reason I can't think of right now. Oh yeah, now I remember. My pair of concinnus produced a few offspring with lateral stripes even though both parents lacked them.

I did also have a question regarding our local melanistic ordinoides. Is that a trait that can be encouraged/promoted by selective breeding? I don't know how the genes work. I just know that melanistic individuals can be found here, but rarely and that all of my captive bred ordinoides varied greatly in color/pattern even in the same brood.

The female in question might look long and skinny to you too because she just gave birth less than a month ago, and is very skinny. She dropped a pretty big clutch for her size. I'm still working on putting her weight back on.

There should 3 T. sirtalis subs in Washington state, I believe. Concinnus, pickeringi (Puget sound), and Fitchi (Valley garters). Depending on range, there can easily be intergrades between any of them, which will make the snakes either share traits from both subspecies or sometimes one sub will just pull some of the discerning traits from the other, making it seem like a whole new snake. For example, there are some ConcinnusXpuget intergrades that are completely lacking red, and only have stripes, but then there are some lacking all of the red, but retaining the red spots, although they are usually muted.

The elegans sp. that is in Washington would be T. e. vagrans. The wandering garter. The Atratus sp. would most likely be T. a. hydrophilus. The Oregon gartersnake. I don't believe that T. couchii live in Washington, but I'm not positive.

As far as Ordinoides, this if my first year working with them but I have too much going on with them to be able to breed them but I'm giving my pair to a friend so he can breed them out for me, because I am trying to figure out if melanism is, in fact, a breedable trait.

I'm going to send you a PM though and talk to you more about concinnus and the other WA garters.

[ConcinusMan]

I have found a few "wandering garters" similar to this one, but prettier: http://www.nearctica.com/herps/snake...d/Telegan4.jpg. and, as far as appearances go, you could swear that they were T. marcianus. I just love that checkered pattern. However, I've never found one in Clark Co. WA. I have found them south of Portland, OR and south of Oregon City, OR. and only in certain limited areas. Keep in mind that in my area, they are generally a Willamette Valley snake and I am just north of the north end of that valley.

Also keep in mind that in my experience, ordinoides (besides being a very small snake, even fully grown) generally gives birth to very few offspring. Kind of ironic since it can be found in such huge numbers around here. Even gravid females collected from the wild, and around the size limit, give birth to 3-13 offspring usually no more. I had a pair for some years and the female was only 15 inches (and that's a big one) and she never gave birth to more than 7, but the young were pretty darn big. Also, they tend to breed spring or fall, give birth in late summer or right after emerging from winter rest. The young, although few, are bigger than the young produced by my 3 foot+ T. s. concinnus! So I'm thinking does that make it more difficult to selectively breed them? The few offspring, I mean. I wouldn't even know where to start selecting. They often gave birth to young with colors/patterns that are nothing like either parent.

[Mike Spencer]

I have found a few "wandering garters" similar to this one, but prettier: http://www.nearctica.com/herps/snake...d/Telegan4.jpg. and, as far as appearances go, you could swear that they were T. marcianus. I just love that checkered pattern. However, I've never found one in Clark Co. WA. I have found them south of Portland, OR and south of Oregon City, OR. and only in certain limited areas. Keep in mind that in my area, they are generally a Willamette Valley snake and I am just north of the north end of that valley.

Also keep in mind that in my experience, ordinoides (besides being a very small snake, even fully grown) generally gives birth to very few offspring. Kind of ironic since it can be found in such huge numbers around here. Even gravid females collected from the wild, and around the size limit, give birth to 3-13 offspring usually no more. I had a pair for some years and the female was only 15 inches (and that's a big one) and she never gave birth to more than 7, but the young were pretty darn big. Also, they tend to breed spring or fall, give birth in late summer or right after emerging from winter rest. The young, although few, are bigger than the young produced by my 3 foot+ T. s. concinnus! So I'm thinking does that make it more difficult to selectively breed them? The few offspring, I mean. I wouldn't even know where to start selecting. They often gave birth to young with colors/patterns that are nothing like either parent.

That's the thing about ordinoides. They have such a high variance in color and pattern and I'm not sure whether they're able to be selectively bred or whether they just its all just random how they turn out. I've found brown ones, grey ones, greenish once, ones with a single stripe that is yellow, red, white, orange, tri stripes in the same colors, and patternless, so it's just hard to tell what's going on with them. My melanistic is about 15" and my male is about 12. They're not very big snakes at all.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

@ aSnakeLovinBabe: Not you too! another concinnus owner? I can't believe it. 15 years ago, hardly any Thamnophis breeder even knew what I was talking about and was totally unfamiliar with the subspecies. Now I'm hearing about concinnus breeders on other continents and I've found so many right here in this forum. Wow. Oh, and it wasn't "thickness" that threw me off. It's the long, thin body and tail that made me think it was male. The overall gradual tapering. Of course, from the photo, I don't have the option of looking underneath to see the distance from vent to tail tip.

oh yes! me too! I own 2.2 concinnus at the moment, 1.2 of those are my high black/reduced pattern project. With those I am aiming to make an all black snake with the bright green stripe and bright red head. My females are almost at that point, but not quite. and 1 is what I call the rainbow male. Concinnus is actually one of the very first subspecies of garter I worked with. Rhea (username Drache) is sending me her Concinnus female who has similar features to my rainbow male, so that we may selectively breed for the most colorful concinnus out there! I had a REALLY cool male that had some abberrant-looking splotches of black bleeding all through his normal colors, but sadly I lost him.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh, that's another thing. You say bright green stripe and many around here do appear that way,(greenish yellow) but many also have a clearly yellow stripe, not greenish at all. Some of the offspring produced by my pair not only varied by a few having lateral stripes, but I saw perhaps 5 offspring in the 21 years that almost completely lacked red on the body, AND lacked lateral stripes. (2 out of 23 last brood) I mean, it was barely there, but the color intensity of what red (actually orange) was there, was normal. The only trait for which I never saw any variation, was the head and underside of the neck coloration. All my snakes had solid black undersides, fading to a light blue-green under the chin/neck and the same color on the upper labials, top of head black and just a faded spot of orange on the largest upper labials. Like this picture:

When I say that a few have lateral stripes, even among a brood that mostly lacks lateral stripes, from parents that both lack lateral stripes, I mean like this one:


I haven't been out looking for snakes in a few years and I am hoping to find several Clark Co. WA concinnus showing various traits, next week when we are expected to have sun and highs in the 70's. If I am successful, I will bring them home, even if only temporarily, so I can get some high quality photos to post. Wish me luck.

[Mike Spencer]

oh yes! me too! I own 2.2 concinnus at the moment, 1.2 of those are my high black/reduced pattern project. With those I am aiming to make an all black snake with the bright green stripe and bright red head. My females are almost at that point, but not quite. and 1 is what I call the rainbow male. Concinnus is actually one of the very first subspecies of garter I worked with. Rhea (username Drache) is sending me her Concinnus female who has similar features to my rainbow male, so that we may selectively breed for the most colorful concinnus out there! I had a REALLY cool male that had some abberrant-looking splotches of black bleeding all through his normal colors, but sadly I lost him.

I saw your 'rainbow' on KS. I believe I commented on it. Gorgeous concinnus. I have one I haven't gotten pics of yet that is rainbowed, but it's washed out as if it is hypo. So I'm gonna breed it out before I make any assumptions about him.

[guidofatherof5]

Great head photo. Beautiful snake.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I saw your 'rainbow' on KS. I believe I commented on it. Gorgeous concinnus. I have one I haven't gotten pics of yet that is rainbowed, but it's washed out as if it is hypo. So I'm gonna breed it out before I make any assumptions about him.

Thanks! One day I showed him to my brother who instantly said "he looks like a flaming rainbow"... the name stuck and thus he is the rainbow concinnus forever!!!! His lateral stripes are bright teal blue... and the coolest thing is the LIME green on his face, it hurts your eyes! I simply love him!

Three of my concinnus lack lateral stripes. I generally prefer them to be that way. The three that lack lateral stripes have green dorsals, and the rainbow male's is more of a brilliant yellow. Two of them have black stomachs, and rainbow man and one of my high blacks have blue stomachs. I have also seen concinnus with tan, and occasionally white dorsals. They are incredibly variable and don't be surprised when I end up with yet another phenotype of concinnus that I just could not resist!!!

[Mike Spencer]

Thanks! One day I showed him to my brother who instantly said "he looks like a flaming rainbow"... the name stuck and thus he is the rainbow concinnus forever!!!! His lateral stripes are bright teal blue... and the coolest thing is the LIME green on his face, it hurts your eyes! I simply love him!

Three of my concinnus lack lateral stripes. I generally prefer them to be that way. The three that lack lateral stripes have green dorsals, and the rainbow male's is more of a brilliant yellow. Two of them have black stomachs, and rainbow man and one of my high blacks have blue stomachs. I have also seen concinnus with tan, and occasionally white dorsals. They are incredibly variable and don't be surprised when I end up with yet another phenotype of concinnus that I just could not resist!!!

I have a female with a black belly and yellow dorsal, as well as a female with a lime green dorsal and turquoise belly. One of my anerys have almost a solid black belly, and the other has a black belly with whitish speckling. They are highly variable. I have a few more that are all in between as well.

[ConcinusMan]

Hmm... all of this from captive breeding? I suppose it would be better for getting variations like this from wild collected specimens if I get them from different geographical areas? I already mentioned all the very few variations I get from Clark Co., WA specimins.

Oh, and can someone provide a link to the picture of this "rainbow" you're talking about? I know that my concinnus actually do give off rainbow colors in the black areas right after they shed, but surely that's not what you mean.