Mice make garters bigger then on worms?

[drache]

as far as I know there is some genetic component to how big garters (or anything) grows
it is certainly possible to stunt the growth of a creature to prevent them from reaching their potential size, but I doubt that even with the most optimal diet, one could surpass that genetic parameter
while I see that babies with a rodent preference grow noticeably faster than those with worm or fish preferences, I don't know that it necessarily limits their adult size not to eat rodents
to add - I believe that in the wild, food preferences may change seasonally, as well as with life and growth stages
I've noticed that some of my garters (the wc ones) will have different prey preferences at different times of the year

[BChambers]

One thing these threads often fail to mention is varying dietary preferences by SPECIES.I both agree and disagree with SLB on this basis. Many Thamnophis species seldom or never feed on rodents in the wild-on the other hand, some species/ssp. seldom or never feed on anything BUT rodents!

In the latter category I would place many populations of wandering, plains and checkered garters, as well as a few populations of sirtalis. These snakes are evolved to prey on rodents, and a constant rodent diet does not seem to do them any harm whatsoever. I personally have (for the last 20 years) started out all my baby marcianus on pinky pieces-almost never is any scenting required. All are fed rodents throughout their lives, and seemingly live a normal, reproductively active life span. Same with when I used to breed Blais Flames back in the 90s.

On the other hand, I don't think I'd try that with such species as ribbons, western aquatic, etc. They have evolved with a primarily fish and amphibian diet, and I've heard of problems from a rodent-only diet with these species. A lot of sirtalis subspecies would fall somewhere in between, and for these a varied diet is indicated.

In summary, I just think we would all do well to look carefully at how our animals "make a living" in the wild-our captives can't help but benefit.

[charles parenteau]

I met Dr Blais 15 years ago and at that time he was feeding mainly on rodent,so I introduce rodent to my garter snake and for long it was their main food source .BY experience I don't give rodent anymore.Their is lot of probleme related .
DrBlais show me the difference between captive bred specimen with wild caught .I cant explain it in detail but most probleme occur at long term and over generation.
In captivity female garter snake have smaller litter than wild one with the same size,but when you fed mainly on rodent more chance of incidence.
Slugs,dead babies,deformation,just few babies looking good ,these are the most related problem with rodent or when use heating pad.
I give trout jellow and worms to my garter snake,But I know on what they fed on in the wild And I think that the best ,the only thing good with jellow and rodent is very easy to us to get this food .

I know everything is about food and UV lighting!!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I often wonder what are some of the underlying causes of stillborn, deformed/kinked babies, high amounts of jellybeans and etc. Over the many, many clutches of garters I have seen born I have never seen a kinked baby in the flesh yet! And it's just weird to me because I see that they occur once or twice a season in some other's collections but I still have never seen one!

I don't intentionally provide any of my snakes with UV lighting, and only the ones in certain enclosures get any direct lighting on their cage at all. My snakeroom gets rather hot with only a few bulbs and the rack system running. I don't give my gravid females extra heat and I don't allow them to over eat. Some garters do eat rodents in the wild, and some are much more aquatic but overall, they are all opportunistic and have a varied diet to some extent and that is why I continue to vary the diet. My garters appear to "enjoy" the variations anyways!

[BChambers]

All I can say is that, in many years of breeding marcianus, I've VERY seldom had a stillborn baby, nor anything but the very occasional infertile ova. I've never fed anything but rodents, and never provided UV lighting. My checkereds are kept exactly like my other colubrids-in rack systems with a heat-tape "hot spot" at one end.

After two decades, and hundreds of snakes bred, I think I can at least say that for this one species (T. marcianus), neither UV lighting nor a varied diet is either necessary or desirable (inasmuch as fish, worms and amphibians have a much greater potential of introducing harmful pathogens than frozen/thawed rodents).

I can't, of course, say anything about other species/ssp of which I have much less direct experience.

[charles parenteau]

I give Uv light to gravid female that is very necessary at leat for the latter half of the pregnencie this is so important ,Uvb bulb is good and most of my snake have one.
BAd Food and lack of uv light are the main reasons for stillborn ,slugs ect.I Dont care about lighting for male.

Heating pad or rock are not good for gravid female should be avoid.

Uv fluorescent with and UVB bulb for heat are better .BUt do not overheat your female at the first stage of pregnencie .

UV light cant be replace by vitamine...better real uv than supplement.
uvb just provide heat ?..

[charles parenteau]

I was talking about sirtalis sirtalis,but dont really know about other species.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

All I can say is that, in many years of breeding marcianus, I've VERY seldom had a stillborn baby, nor anything but the very occasional infertile ova. I've never fed anything but rodents, and never provided UV lighting. My checkereds are kept exactly like my other colubrids-in rack systems with a heat-tape "hot spot" at one end.

After two decades, and hundreds of snakes bred, I think I can at least say that for this one species (T. marcianus), neither UV lighting nor a varied diet is either necessary or desirable (inasmuch as fish, worms and amphibians have a much greater potential of introducing harmful pathogens than frozen/thawed rodents).

I can't, of course, say anything about other species/ssp of which I have much less direct experience.

Yea!!! now my question is, why does it happen to some people, but not others?! you and I both feed differently but get the same results!

[BChambers]

Yea!!! now my question is, why does it happen to some people, but not others?! you and I both feed differently but get the same results!

I don't know the answer to your question for sure, but as an educated guess-I'd say that, while a varied diet may not be necessary, it is also not necessarily harmful-and in many cases may be beneficial-as long as the keeper (like yourself) is extremely careful about the issues of parasite transmission and thiaminase.

I know you keep and breed red-striped ribbons, and I would NEVER recommend feeding that species a rodent-only diet!

[BChambers]

I was talking about sirtalis sirtalis,but dont really know about other species.

It makes sense to me that your Quebec sirtalis may well find UV light very beneficial, while my marcianus do fine without it. Canadian sirtalis-indeed, all northern forms of Thamnophis, are primarily diurnal. They are adapted to lots of solar exposure due to the cold nights you experience, even in midsummer. Down here in Texas-and other hot, dry habitats- our garters don't dare show their faces when ol' sol is above the horizon! Most foraging, breeding etc is done at night.

Again, these things are easier to figure out if we look at how our snakes are living in a natural state.