People against wild caught Garters

[TheSnakeGuy1]

I don't like it when people take fully grown wild animlas into captivity, when they been wild there whole life. I don't mind if they take something out of the wild if its younger than 1 month. I just caught a week old garter, 5 inches long! So im trying to get it to eat for me and if it does im going to tame her down and domesticate her.
-Alex

[FunkyRes]

For example; because San Francisco Garters are so rare in the wild, removing one from it's habitat will probably have a negative outcome on the overall population.

The problem with SF Garters isn't small numbers as much as it is extremely small range that has largely been built. Where they persist, either they have good numbers or there are non collection impacts on their overall population (such as the elimination of their primary prey item, Rana draytonii).

Ever year, hundreds of snakes are killed by cars.
Small scale collection removes peanuts compared to road kill.
Yet the populations persist - and where they do not persist, it is almost always because of habitat alteration.

Another issue with SF Garters is that they exist largely in isolated populations, which means if a particular population is over collected, there is no corridor for production in neighboring populations to move in and replenish the site. This can result in excessive inbreeding among the garters that remain which can cause a population crash.

A study done on Sagebrush lizards showed that intentionally depleting an area resulted in lizards from neighboring areas quickly moving in, that can't happen with isolated populations.

[GarterGeek]

The problem with SF Garters isn't small numbers as much as it is extremely small range that has largely been built. Where they persist, either they have good numbers or there are non collection impacts on their overall population (such as the elimination of their primary prey item, Rana draytonii).

Ever year, hundreds of snakes are killed by cars.
Small scale collection removes peanuts compared to road kill.
Yet the populations persist - and where they do not persist, it is almost always because of habitat alteration.

Another issue with SF Garters is that they exist largely in isolated populations, which means if a particular population is over collected, there is no corridor for production in neighboring populations to move in and replenish the site. This can result in excessive inbreeding among the garters that remain which can cause a population crash.

A study done on Sagebrush lizards showed that intentionally depleting an area resulted in lizards from neighboring areas quickly moving in, that can't happen with isolated populations.

What you say makes sense, and I have no arguement against it.

I was merely saying that the arguements for and against collecting wild-caught specimens may not be applicable in all situations. Although, there are much greater problems for the San Fransisco Garters, privately collecting them for pets is probably not a good decision. Common Eastern Garters are abundant and removing two or three should not cause a great problem. It might not have been the greatest of examples, but it was the first to come to mind.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I don't like it when people take fully grown wild animlas into captivity, when they been wild there whole life.

I agree with this statement. #1) Adults are set in their ways. For example, they may have grown up adopting a selective diet, and may be more difficult to feed. Also, the longer a snake has spent time in the wild, the more chance it has had of acquiring parasites. (Okay, those are "captive" reasons) #2) The odds of a neonate snake being eaten by a natural predator is still quite high, whereas larger adults have undergone many trials in evading predators; mature adults who have gathered experience in the evasion of predators are more likely to continue to do so, and thus be more likely to create more successive and healthier offspring; I especially do not agree with the collecting of gravid specimens.

This is one of those classic threads where some of us have to agree to disagree.

All 4 of my garters are wild-caught natives; these can not be purchased within the state of California, but there is a small bag limit with a fishing license. My native snakes collection is used in several presentations I hold each year at the HSU Natural History Museum, the College of the Redwoods, and at various other schools. I am always inspired when I can make a difference in educating the masses about these animals. I often have to play the hypocrite in my lectures about not catching these animals and keeping them in captivity, and this is the main reason why: Of the many families that visit these events, the most common reference to keeping these snakes in captivity involves ruthless, young children bringing their "garden snakes" or "striped racers" home and putting them in a cardboard box or some other inappropriate enclosure and feeding them mealworms, etc. I let the adults know that garters have special habitat and care requirements, and make their care sound more difficult than it usually is. Of course I am pretty OCD when it comes to making their enclosures look like their native habitat (I don't use plastic rocks and plants, and I use [sterilized] native substrate). Sooo.... I use my animals to educate. I mean, not many people are going to go to an educational lecture about native garters if all you have to show them are a bunch of posters and pictures in books. Only the hardcore naturalists or herpetoculturists are going to hit the PowerPoint (only) presentation. I want to hit the masses, and many of "them", "they" that rarely READ anything of value, want to see a live snake!

Aside from my endeavors with HumboldtHerps, I am also a Biology major engaged in local herp studies. In studies that cover dietary preferences, growth rates, genetics, etc. captive specimens are often a requirement. Please note, that many wildlife studies (professionally funded scientific endeavors) involve the capture, death, and dissection of numerous individuals. I read one doctorate study on Pituophis where over 200 specimens where killed just to see what the dietary trends were... To me, this is an unfortunate and excessive amount, yet this stuff happens all the time.

I really appreciate Stefan-A's continual defense of wild-caughts in this and other threads; in the big picture of things, his view is noble, responsible, and yes, there is never any guarantee that we will ever really know what effect we have on the local populations when we collect wild specimens...
We may just be another predator in the scheme of things (that's not a justification either, since humans have a mind that can choose to do otherwise). Tsk, tsk... What else to say on this most stimulating argument...

Have a great weekend! (That works)

Steven K.