cross breeding?

[jamromhem]

yeah I was just noticing that there were already garters with the look that I wan tin them :P

So much for making my own cool hybrid :P nature stole my idea

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yea, the carteret county erythristic eastern looks exactly like a red checkered actually... she's red... and perfectly checkered! I am not against hybrids completely because I must say, I have seen some incredibly cool hybrid snakes, but only really the ones that are like, really wacky unique crosses, like burmese python x ball pythons, bateaters, ball python x woma pythons, etc. Those are very very interesting, beautiful animals in their own way. I don't and never did see the point in crossing corn snakes with emoryi rat snakes because they look almost exactly the same and did nothing but confuse a lot of people and muddle genetics because they get passed for pure corns. The far out there hybrids... people can look at them and say oh, that is a hybrid. The ones that are closely related and leave you guessing... I am NOT a fan of. Kind of like the grayband x thayeri crosses or most of the other king/milk crosses. I would have no idea what I was looking at if people didn't tell me. I don't really see a point in hybridizing thamnophis though only because in my opinion there is no way you could make them any cooler looking and more distinct than they already are. When it comes to my garters I am a purist and I prefer selective breeding projects within species/subspecies. But I don't bring down those who choose to produce hybrids of any snake simply because I believe once a snake or any animal is born it's life is to be respected no matter if it's pure, a hybrid, even an accidental hybrid. Some people would cull animals like this but I personally don't agree with that. Sure, hybrids are not generally a natural thing, but neither is keeping snakes in captivity period, so if some people enjoy crossing species to make crazy cracked out looking snakes, and they can do so while honestly representing what they are, and the snakes are thriving, I can't judge them for that! But, I highly doubt that anything cool could come of thamnophis hybrids. They are just all too closely related and they already come in every color of the rainbow! They will just end up being sub par looking garters that some people have no idea what the heck they are looking at, accidentally label it one species or the other, and then genetics everywhere could become unintentionally tainted.

[jamromhem]

yeah I see the point. No real purpose with garters.

(I wonder if you can cross an egg snake with a garter?) just kidding. though a baby garter/eggsnake able to eat a fuzzy at birth would be interesting :P

I see the point of not hybridizing them though and saw the look that I was wanting in another thamnophis. might want to hold off on it though :P it might become my favorite :P.. don't want my checkered (who spends all of her time playing hide and seek under her substrate so I don't get to enjoy her without harassing her) to feel less loved.

[Brewster320]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/gene...siblities.html

Genera doesn't matter my bets are it could happen considering how cloesely related the two genera are. Many of the different generas between other North American Colubrids (Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, and Pituophis). Some of these have even been bred with some of the Asian Rat Snakes in the genus Elaphe which many would actually consider impossible. It has also been proven that different genus of pythons and boas can interbreed with each other (Not boas X pythons of course but with different genus of there own families). The ball python has even been crossed with the woma python which is amazing considering they are in different genus, one lives in Africa, othe other in Aussie, and the Woma doesn't even have heat pits which is a huge differnce! So to say a water x garter is impossible can't be proven until its tried.

As for garter hybrids. To be truthfully honest, if you don't include colors all garter look basicly the same body shape, size, structure, and pattern wise. there may be some small differences but once you cross two garters that difference is gone. then once you add morphs into the mix It'd be close to impossible to identify the hybrids. With any other group of snakes I'd give you the go ahead because I love hybrids but with garters, not a great idea with other garters atleast.

[Stefan-A]

Genera doesn't matter my bets are it could happen considering how cloesely related the two genera are. Many of the different generas between other North American Colubrids (Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, and Pituophis). Some of these have even been bred with some of the Asian Rat Snakes in the genus Elaphe which many would actually consider impossible. It has also been proven that different genus of pythons and boas can interbreed with each other (Not boas X pythons of course but with different genus of there own families). The ball python has even been crossed with the woma python which is amazing considering they are in different genus, one lives in Africa, othe other in Aussie, and the Woma doesn't even have heat pits which is a huge differnce! So to say a water x garter is impossible can't be proven until its tried.

Actually, I was just pointing out that it's not the first time the issue has been discussed.

[Brewster320]

Actually, I was just pointing out that it's not the first time the issue has been discussed.

I know. I was just putting my imput on the infomation in that thread because it seems that the final conculsion of that was that the cross would be impossible.

[gregmonsta]

(I wonder if you can cross an egg snake with a garter?) just kidding. though a baby garter/eggsnake able to eat a fuzzy at birth would be interesting :P

There actually was a report of a south American population of garters that have made the move towards raiding the eggs from birds nest in one of my issues of 'The Garter Snake' (EGSA newsletter). Thamnophis dasypeltissima is restricted to a network of islands and was first reported in 2007 on the Tauranga Atol and there have only been few biological observations of this species so far.

[Mike Spencer]

Although not 'hybrids' there are a lot of subspecies that will have an intergrade zone where two subspecies will successfully breed. In California, there is the Thamnophis atratus atratus X zaxanthus X hydrophilus intergrades and the Thamnophis elegans elegans X vagrans intergrades, both of which I find every year. Also, in Washington state, there is the Thamnophis sirtalis concinnus X pickeringi intergrades. I know there are others but I would have to check my notes. I'll get back on them.

[Stefan-A]

The Rossman et al. book has maps showing several intergrade zones.

[mustang]

in texas the checkered &blackneck overlap around helotes & san antonio