Flame genetics

[Zephyr]

I think they're more complex than was previously thought.
For example, Tina's babies were the product of a "True" flame crossed with a North-eastern morph eastern garter snake. The babies are obviously a mix of pure flames and partial flames. This leads me to think that the two of these genetic traits are the same, but their intensity is dictated by genetics. However, their concentration between the lateral scales and on the scales themselves may be a different gene.
I have seen this North-eastern morph in 3 colors; red (flame), orange (???), and yellow (???). The last of which may only be slightly noticeable on most snakes. So, hypothetically, crossing a "true" flame with one of these orange or yellow animals should provide a yellow (or orange) colored snake, such as Don's orange eastern.
Is there anyone out there currently breeding for these yellow/orange flames?
Any other comments on the statements above?

[charles parenteau]

Here in Quebec!!We found orange-high red -yellow garter in the same population -
First high red specimen are born as orange and become apple red as adult
3rd summer..
When you see an adult orange flame 50/100 chance that is born as regular yellow and become more and more orange as they grow..each shed bring more orange or red...

THe intensify of the erythristic pigment undergoes a significant ontogenic increase over at least the first 2 years of life*DRPhil Blais comment virium issue volume 9 number 6*

few years ago I kept a very high yellow wc female cross with an unknown male ...from one of my best flame spot ...50/100 of her babies with amall amont of orange.cross 2 yellow specimen from this location I think you will have few babies with orange...
Crossing flame from one location with a garter from other spot ...that make a difference , the gene are weakened...by experience that make poor flame with only red or orange pigment between scales...

My friend cross high yellow specimen with some garter with poor red or orange ... high yellow garter x poor red makes high orange specimen or at least make the red more apple red !what happen in wild population and what happen with specimen in captive breeding are not the same...
I think most of Quebec garter snake population haves genes for red pigment.

GEne are stronger inner polpulation.the true* apple red flame as you know are very very rare in wild...I caught specimen with small amount of red in each spot but flame population consist mainly of orange .
Since my last 15 years in search for flame I caught only 4 with full face red or orange..
As far as I remember,this garter snake is the most beautiful male I ever caught ...hes is orange or red I dont know ..at this location were i found him most flame are orange red or red orange???I think yellow+red =orange...Im still looking for high red in this spot!

I didnt answer your question,but this is something i still try to understand!
I will post more pictures on other post.

[Zephyr]

Great description!
However, the thing I'm wondering is if the color between the scales is on the same gene as color on the scales.

[Jeff B]

The flame morph is likely a polygenetic trait, which means that the phenotype (apperance) is an assemblance of multiple or many genes to create the flame look. This explains the high variability in offsping siblings, as variable amounts of the group of genes are passed on to each individual snake. As opposed to the single point, single gene (on/off switch) genes such as the recessive genes like albino and anerythristic that we are all familiar with and how it takes one copy of the gene from both parents (two copies of the gene in the offspring) to switch it "on", and either it has it or it doesn't. The fact that a flame can be bred to a normal and produce roughly half of the offspring with some degree of flame characteristic, says the the flame genes as a group have a dominant effect or are dominant in relation to the wild type color on the sides.
Hope this "sheds" some light and makes sense.
Jeff

[charles parenteau]

I agree,a lot of sense...tanks alot.Honestly I learn something I have experience with garter snake but genetic is another thing.
I have many flame from different location .next year most of them will be adult...I want to bred garter from the same location together ,that why Im going to each spot to complete my pairs...

At one location 1/3 of garter snake are very red or orange.Me and my friend have lots of futur breeding pair and we expect more from them than any other flame from anywhere else...He told me that inside this population the red pigment is very strong and most snake have the gene ...I dont want to brake the chain within this population.each year we will return our extra babie at this spot.

By experience my friend told me that we should have freak such as crimson garter .
You never know what to expect from 2 wild flame garter that why I love them so much.
Hopefully we will take regular flame to a step further!only because of the good genetic!!!
By the way this is a crimson garter snake on the top.

[Jeff B]

Those crimson flames from your locality are absolutely fantastic looking!!!
They look to have the red pigment more evenly dispersed more like a typical "erythristic", rather than just primarily on the sides like the "flames" in typically circulating in the USA . Also it is a more "crimson" red than the "orangish red" of the typical USA circulating flame. That should make for an excellent cross, hopefully strong and robust with good consistant bright red color all over body hopefully.
While good intentioned, be very cautious of what babies you release back into the wild, especially if they have blood from other locality mixed in, or where housed in captivity with other localities (could pick up other normal flora baceria that is harmless to one population, but lethal to another, ect, ect. pathogenic possiblities) it could have a negative or very harmful impact to your local wild population.
What a super great project.
I would be very interested to aquire any results that you wish or need to part with, if possible.

[Zephyr]

Also... I think the color on the scales is controlled and variable to a different set of genes. Last year I found an erythristic snake who lacked red between its scales, yet on its scales it was completely red.

[charles parenteau]

I realease babies at two locations ...both will be destroy in few years!if we are lucky...all my garter snake came from Motreal area before we divide de land they were a single population ...now we found garter snake in isolated population all around Montreal,Laval,Laprairie QC...

I don't release animal from Drummondville at laprairie for example.
Most of my spot are small enough,take 2-3 hours per location to make a complete tour.The final countdown is coming soon anyway ..

I don't sell garter snake ..so I have lot of extra babies not as beautiful as you see on the market but very nice indeed.What can I do???

I try to be good but but your absolutely right about negative impact ,will see in futur.I begin to distress about one location in particularly a golf course is coming someday I never know to expect when Im going there.

[Zephyr]

I see your point, Charles.
I guess rally up the nicest looking snakes when go to the locations that will soon be gone. ):
Also, do you have any pics of your high yellows/oranges?

[charles parenteau]

this is a photo of their mother ...I will take pictures in few minutes!I release her at same spot with all her babies ,I keep 2 babies from her...
total mess in the cage after eating frogs!at this location many 3 strippes oranges.