Graphic: Is an all rodent diet really ideal?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I've seen this way to often in Varanids. It's not %100 related to an all rodent diet. It's more related to in the conditions in which the animal is kept in.

Just an example. Varanus exanthematicus is fairly prone to obesity in captive not from an all rodent diet, but mostly do to the fact most people don't offer enough rage in temps, and humidity.

If you keep an animal too cool, or just simply not enough space to properly thermoregulate, you are going to have this problem, either it be a varied diet, fish only, or rodent only.

Not all fish are safe for feeding. Here's a list of some that are not, and some that are.

http://http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Thiaminase


Cheers,
Chad

Thanks Chad!

We are very vocal about the thiaminase issue here at thamnophis! It's good to see that people are becoming more and more aware!

[MoJo]

Rat pups are lower in fat.A mouse has a ton of fat.from what i've read.

I always thought that rats were higher in fat content. Here is a link to Rodentpro where they list the nutritional content of different feeder animals. The info listed is from an independent source that I have not checked out. It appears to me that the mice are lower in fat. I am not sure if that is true if you compare the same size rat to the same size mouse.

Higher protein diets may not be good since higher protein diet may be worse in the long term for kidney function. I wonder about the fat and protein proportions of their diet in the wild.

[Scott F]

Shannon,

I had told you that I didn't notice the swelling on the water snake. If I had I would NEVER have sold it. Knowingly selling sickly animals is the kiss of death in our field. I would have had no problem w/ you bringing it back to me and refunding your $ (before or after the show). I did offer to take the snake back once you made me aware of this and you didn't accept my offer. I do feed my collection all rodents and back when I first started, did have some problems w/ obesity (fat rolls which are indicative of obeseness), due to overfeeding. I now back off on quantity and frequency and this has worked out well.

The problem w/ fish and frogs is that they are both loaded with parasites...worms can be lethal too as I have personally had a perfectly healthy snake die the day after feeding worms. I have friends that this has happend too as well. So it comes down to pick your poison, I have been feeding an all rodent diet since I got into garters and their life expectancy still averages around 10 years. Rodents don't have the parasite problem and one can even get lab raised mice, which are guaranteed to be disease/pathogen free.

Lastly, the gravid red water snake you got from me was fed on an all rodent diet (which I told you b4 purchasing her), as as the snakes I am sending you today, which I told you what they were feeding on as well. If the all rodent diet is that much of a concern for you, why would you still want to purchase from me? (Not being contrite w/ this question)

Scott

Here's the story. I woke up yesterday morning to turn the snake lights on. I noticed my male hypo water snake in the pond. Thinking nothing, I left for work. When I returned home... I noticed he was STILL in th pond, in the exact same position. He was curled in a U with his head resting on a rock out of the water. Little did I know... he was dead!!! I never would have though in a million years he would be dead, but he was!!! He looked perfectly alive and alert. Anyways... I got this snake from Scott Felzer at the daytona show last august. Shortly after checking him out in the truck I noticed a part of his abdomen was rather swollen and puffy. Very soft to the touch. I was worried, so i had the vet check him out and the vet said it was just some fatty tissue buildup. I know Scott feeds pretty much all rodents and that this snake was eating them. I switched him onto a diet of fish, with only the occasional rodent... which he grew less and less fond of as he realized how much he likes fish. The puffy spot never really went away, it got a bit smaller because he trimmed down once he started eating fish. But it was still there ever after almost 9 months. He stopped eating 3 weeks ago before I found him dead yesterday. I was too curious to resist opening him up to finally find out for sure what the heck that bulge was.

Indeed, this does appear to be fatty tissue, but there is WAY more of it than any snake should have, especially in the area of the bulge. I was very surprised to see that it extended further than just the bulging spot. It was wrapped and entangled all around the organs and i had to move it aside to see any of them.

In short, I have always worried that an all rodent diet is too fatty and rich for snakes that normally feed almost exclusively on aquatic and invertebrate prey. Now, opening up this snake pretty much confirms it, at least for me. I know that many many of these snakes are seemingly doing fine on an all rodent diet, but i think this here is an example of why rodents are not always the optimal prey item.

Scott, this is in NO way directed at you or criticizing your husbandry. You raise hundreds of snakes each year and produce some of the best animals out there. You do a great job with your snakes and you are a master of breeding thamnophis. I will probably buy from you every single year, for... ever! I have garters/water snakes myself that once ate rodents only and none of them seem to be any worse for wear.

But, this snake is an example of why I strongly feel that a highly varied diet with rodents only as a portion of it is best. I am not saying that the rodents did it for sure either, this could be some kind of tumor, or hormone malfuction that caused him to store too much fat. I just wanted to post this find for all to see, and to be wary that we may be unknowlingly shaving years off our snake's lives with too many fatty rodents.

WARNING the following photos are GRAPHIC.
sorry for the terrible background... and I didn't have any straight pins!! I basically did this underneath the deck of our house, on an old board, with gloves and X-acto knives.

[MasSalvaje]

I don't believe anyone is calling you out on your your husbandry practices Scott, you have been able to do what no one else in the world has been able to do with your breeding and raising of garters.

This is my opinion but this thred has not changed my personal view about feeding an all rodent diet to my Garters. I do every once in awhile throw in a piece of trout or amphib but those times are few and far between. I have a WC female T. e. vagrans that will only accept mice and not for lack of trying, I have tried to give her other things but with no success.

One specimen is a very poor sample pool (I realize this was not intended to be any sort of scientific study and I am really sorry about your personal loss Shannon), and the fact of the matter remains that no matter how hard we try we will never %100 percent copy the diet of a wild garter. How many of us feed our garters slugs? Leeches? Snails? Grubs? (All of which I have seen eaten or the regurge remains of wild specimens) I have even seen a wild garter go after a baby bird that fell from its nest.

It would be interesting to see an official scientific experiment done on the matter with a control (varied diet), and then specimens that eat solely one food source, one of worms, one of fish, one of amphibs, and one of rodents. That is just me thinking aloud though.

-Thomas

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Hmmm, Scott I sent you an email, but I think this thread sure has attracted a lot more attention than I thought it would and maybe I should further clarify a few things!

First and very foremost, I want everyone to know that I am NOT accusing Scott of selling me a sick snake, or making the snake sick, or anything at all like that. I was merely mentioning that he is where I got it is all. I was originally not even going to mention that much because I was afraid I would accidentally make him look bad or something. Scott did offer to take the snake back, he had no idea about any bulgy thing, and I politely declined because he gave me the snake for a very, very good price ($25) and my vet said that all the snake needed was a little less food, but otherwise it was a healthy animal. My vet was not worried, I was not worried, so I only informed Scott of it, basically for the hell of it. I was not looking to return the snake.

Second, I need to address the issue that I think I may accidentally mislead everyone to think that I am totally AGAINST feeding a rodent diet in my over-zealousness (you gotta remember guys, I had just got done cutting up my pet snake and washing his blood off a board when I wrote this, I was kinda freaked). In fact, I am not at all against people who feed their garters an all rodent diet. It works for a LOT of people. What I simply mean is that for me, and my husbandry methods, personally I would rather feed a varied diet, I feel safer that way. And that works equally well for me as a rodent only diet does for many others. By posting this thread, I was basically posting an experience I had, and questioning, asking "hey guys, look at this, I think this COULD be related to eating rodents, but I am not totally sure because it could be other things too." It was more of a, post what I found, and see what others speculate kind of thing. It was not meant to attack rodent-only feeders. It was not meant to convince rodent-only feeders to feed their snake something else. It was just a little background information on the snake, an observation of what was found, and my own personal speculation as to what may have gone wrong. I do include rodents as a good portion of my garter and water snake's diet. Just not the whole portion. I am not trying to exactly mimic their wild diet, just kind of stick somewhat close to it.

In fact when babies are born here, I will not sell them/ send them off to their new homes until they are accepting pinky parts unscented. Once they are accepting those, I know they are confident enough and strong enough feeders to be on their own. Rodents are still a valueable food source for our garters and should not be excluded, in my opinion. I am sure many of you have seen me, at one time or another, tell a person that refuses to feed rodents to their snake that they should strongly reconsider, because in my eyes feeding a mouse or a fish, or a worm is the same, it's still killing a living breathing creature. Because rodents are furry, does not make them superior and somehow exempt from being eaten.

Basically, what it boils down to, is how I like to keep my snakes. I like to keep my garters in large showy enclosures, with lots of plants and climby things, with basking lights, because those are things they have access to in the wild and it comforts me to give it to them, and since I am an artist and a bit OCD, I feel like I have to. If my snakeroom doesnt look pretty I am not happy. I know that if I kept them in racks that they would do just fine, but I personally like spending time building setups (wait until you see my recent snakeroom pics) and being a spectator in my snakeroom.

The same thing applies with the food I feed them. I have so much remorse, for not knowing any better when I was younger, and feeding my old garters goldfish, you would never believe it. I am so scared, to do wrong by my snakes again that I feel safer going with a varied diet. They get rodents, they get worms, they get safe fish that has been frozen in the chest freezer for at least 30 days, and they get frog legs when they have them at the fish market which are also frozen. I spent a whole day last year going around the neighborhood (I live in a rural area) asking nearby residents if they use any chemicals and/or pesticides. Surprisingly, everyone said no... but then again nobody even really cares about their lawn any further than mowing it anyways. So the nightcrawlers in my yard are a safe and valuable (and free) food source.

So, if I accidentally offended anyone, or seemed to jump to conclusions when really, I was just speculating as to what this could be and why it might not be good, I apologize. I never meant for this thread to become such hot stuff. I knew going into this that I was going to have people who both agreed, and disagreed, because the same things won't work for different people.

Scott, I choose to buy from you because I know how good of a job you do with your animals. They are healthy, and perfect, and I was able to see that in person at Daytona, and continue to see it every time you send me something new. I aspire to reach your level of respect, reputation, and good customer service. Just because I don't want to feed my animals rodents only, does not give me the right to boycott you or criticize you, or put you down for doing so when you get the same good results with your feeding as I do with mine. I know when I buy from you, I am consistenly getting a top notch animal and that you are never going to screw me over or rip me off. You run a top notch business and you truly care about your snakes and your customers and that is something that is really hard to find these days. I am willing to pay the extra $$$ for your stock because I am 100% confident that it's a worthy investment. Many people in this hobby make it seem like it's a competition. Like this guy at the hamburg show, he told me he was not going to let you get at his hypo's because you will turn around and sell them for 75839 dollars and this and that, and I don't really understand that mindset. I am in this hobby because I love snakes and I want to share that love with others, and I don't think he was too happy when I bought that snake and told him that I would have no problem sending you some hypo checkereds when some were born. And since it's codom, and this is a male, and it eats like a horse, that will probably be next season. I am into garter snakes to branch out and make friends and exchange all kinds of snakes with all kinds of people, not to try and compete with other breeders and make them my enemy, and block them from getting something they don't have yet!

I know this post was incredibly long winded but I hope it clears things up some!!!

[MasSalvaje]

Excellent post Shannon! I think everyone here would agree.

-Thomas

[Jeff B]

"It would be interesting to see an official scientific experiment done on the matter with a control (varied diet), and then specimens that eat solely one food source, one of worms, one of fish, one of amphibs, and one of rodents. That is just me thinking aloud though."

-Thomas


Thomas,
These studies have actually been done numerous times for garters by both scientists (published data) and hobbiest, and these studies have been done inumerous times by scientists and hobbiest with many other snake species.
In general the scientific and hobbiest concensus is that a mammal, like a rodent is by far the most nutritionally complete and parasite/pathogen free food item to offer a snake in captivity (scientifically supported fact). If you feed anything other than a whole prey animal, be it fish or rodent, you HAVE to vitamin and mineral suppliment, and the regulation of amounts and ratios can be a very tricky, dicey guess at best, because fat soluble vitamins can easily build up to toxic, leathal levels if over dosed.
Obiesity can be part genetic (efficiency of metabolism and fat storage), and part quantity of caloric consumption/metabolism (scientific fact). So, definately consideration of caloric intake is especially important for captive animals that have restricted amounts of exercise or daily calorie burning activities.
My personal OPPINION would be that the water snake more likely had a genetic defect that caused its sudden death, which a small percentage of all animals will have and can be a lethal ticking time bomb, thats just part of the deal when raising numberous animals, it happens, rather than it was a diet related cause of death. However it's hard to prove or disprove either way, as that wasn't an official autopsy?
Jeff

[prattypus]

Alright I'm gonna make a call. CSI Las Vegas is on the way.

[Stefan-A]

Thomas,
These studies have actually been done numerous times for garters by both scientists (published data) and hobbiest, and these studies have been done inumerous times by scientists and hobbiest with many other snake species.

You wouldn't happen to have any links or titles? Preferably to something peer-reviewed.

[Scott F]

Jeff, appreciate your input, think we're on the same page as far as rodents go. Shannon, thankyou for responding back so quickly. We can all agree that a snake's diet is all about an individual's choice. We all have comfort levels w/ various food items that we feed our collections with. Knowing the pros and cons of various food items is helpful for everyone as it allows them to make an eduacted choice as to which food source they choose to work with.

How's the albino dekay doing?

Scott


Hmmm, Scott I sent you an email, but I think this thread sure has attracted a lot more attention than I thought it would and maybe I should further clarify a few things!

First and very foremost, I want everyone to know that I am NOT accusing Scott of selling me a sick snake, or making the snake sick, or anything at all like that. I was merely mentioning that he is where I got it is all. I was originally not even going to mention that much because I was afraid I would accidentally make him look bad or something. Scott did offer to take the snake back, he had no idea about any bulgy thing, and I politely declined because he gave me the snake for a very, very good price ($25) and my vet said that all the snake needed was a little less food, but otherwise it was a healthy animal. My vet was not worried, I was not worried, so I only informed Scott of it, basically for the hell of it. I was not looking to return the snake.

Second, I need to address the issue that I think I may accidentally mislead everyone to think that I am totally AGAINST feeding a rodent diet in my over-zealousness (you gotta remember guys, I had just got done cutting up my pet snake and washing his blood off a board when I wrote this, I was kinda freaked). In fact, I am not at all against people who feed their garters an all rodent diet. It works for a LOT of people. What I simply mean is that for me, and my husbandry methods, personally I would rather feed a varied diet, I feel safer that way. And that works equally well for me as a rodent only diet does for many others. By posting this thread, I was basically posting an experience I had, and questioning, asking "hey guys, look at this, I think this COULD be related to eating rodents, but I am not totally sure because it could be other things too." It was more of a, post what I found, and see what others speculate kind of thing. It was not meant to attack rodent-only feeders. It was not meant to convince rodent-only feeders to feed their snake something else. It was just a little background information on the snake, an observation of what was found, and my own personal speculation as to what may have gone wrong. I do include rodents as a good portion of my garter and water snake's diet. Just not the whole portion. I am not trying to exactly mimic their wild diet, just kind of stick somewhat close to it.

In fact when babies are born here, I will not sell them/ send them off to their new homes until they are accepting pinky parts unscented. Once they are accepting those, I know they are confident enough and strong enough feeders to be on their own. Rodents are still a valueable food source for our garters and should not be excluded, in my opinion. I am sure many of you have seen me, at one time or another, tell a person that refuses to feed rodents to their snake that they should strongly reconsider, because in my eyes feeding a mouse or a fish, or a worm is the same, it's still killing a living breathing creature. Because rodents are furry, does not make them superior and somehow exempt from being eaten.

Basically, what it boils down to, is how I like to keep my snakes. I like to keep my garters in large showy enclosures, with lots of plants and climby things, with basking lights, because those are things they have access to in the wild and it comforts me to give it to them, and since I am an artist and a bit OCD, I feel like I have to. If my snakeroom doesnt look pretty I am not happy. I know that if I kept them in racks that they would do just fine, but I personally like spending time building setups (wait until you see my recent snakeroom pics) and being a spectator in my snakeroom.

The same thing applies with the food I feed them. I have so much remorse, for not knowing any better when I was younger, and feeding my old garters goldfish, you would never believe it. I am so scared, to do wrong by my snakes again that I feel safer going with a varied diet. They get rodents, they get worms, they get safe fish that has been frozen in the chest freezer for at least 30 days, and they get frog legs when they have them at the fish market which are also frozen. I spent a whole day last year going around the neighborhood (I live in a rural area) asking nearby residents if they use any chemicals and/or pesticides. Surprisingly, everyone said no... but then again nobody even really cares about their lawn any further than mowing it anyways. So the nightcrawlers in my yard are a safe and valuable (and free) food source.

So, if I accidentally offended anyone, or seemed to jump to conclusions when really, I was just speculating as to what this could be and why it might not be good, I apologize. I never meant for this thread to become such hot stuff. I knew going into this that I was going to have people who both agreed, and disagreed, because the same things won't work for different people.

Scott, I choose to buy from you because I know how good of a job you do with your animals. They are healthy, and perfect, and I was able to see that in person at Daytona, and continue to see it every time you send me something new. I aspire to reach your level of respect, reputation, and good customer service. Just because I don't want to feed my animals rodents only, does not give me the right to boycott you or criticize you, or put you down for doing so when you get the same good results with your feeding as I do with mine. I know when I buy from you, I am consistenly getting a top notch animal and that you are never going to screw me over or rip me off. You run a top notch business and you truly care about your snakes and your customers and that is something that is really hard to find these days. I am willing to pay the extra $$$ for your stock because I am 100% confident that it's a worthy investment. Many people in this hobby make it seem like it's a competition. Like this guy at the hamburg show, he told me he was not going to let you get at his hypo's because you will turn around and sell them for 75839 dollars and this and that, and I don't really understand that mindset. I am in this hobby because I love snakes and I want to share that love with others, and I don't think he was too happy when I bought that snake and told him that I would have no problem sending you some hypo checkereds when some were born. And since it's codom, and this is a male, and it eats like a horse, that will probably be next season. I am into garter snakes to branch out and make friends and exchange all kinds of snakes with all kinds of people, not to try and compete with other breeders and make them my enemy, and block them from getting something they don't have yet!

I know this post was incredibly long winded but I hope it clears things up some!!!
__________________