Genetics

[k2l3d4]

Oh yeah... and where would the heater be on a plastic tub?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm not sure about all that but the people over there sure don't have a clue about garter snakes!

[k2l3d4]

I'm not sure about all that but the people over there sure don't have a clue about garter snakes!

Yeah.. .I found you guys on this site and have never returned to the other site I love it hear... you all have answered my questions, and I never feel like an idiot for asking you all.... Thank you for making a newbie feel welcome and included.... Now what am I going to do if Hudina is pregnant? whoops

[Stefan-A]

I don't see anything terribly wrong there, to be honest. Garters really don't get lonely and don't need to be kept together. It's of course convenient that they can be kept together more readily than most other snakes, but it's not necessary for their sake. There are a couple of situations where separating the snakes is better.

However, it seems to me that the person who wrote that part was taking something that's true for most snakes and applying it to one group that it isn't entirely true for.

That thing about being too young to breed, may well be true. The larger the individual, the safer it should be for it to give birth or lay eggs. I've also read a few times that breeding them too young will stunt their growth.

[k2l3d4]

I did not know that there growth could be stunted by giving birth too young... that sounds so odd. And as far as keeping the snakes seperate.... I have a hard time on that one, mainly due to the thought that I see them go their seperate ways for all day, but come evening both of my snakes can be found together, just about every night. and it is not out of neccessity, since the tank is warm enough and has ample hiding spots. I personally do not think that the snakes are solitary animals as I have always been told growing up, and it is not only my garters that i have seen like this, but my boyfriends ball pythons act like this every now and then, too.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I don't see anything terribly wrong there, to be honest. Garters really don't get lonely and don't need to be kept together. It's of course convenient that they can be kept together more readily than most other snakes, but it's not necessary for their sake. There are a couple of situations where separating the snakes is better.

However, it seems to me that the person who wrote that part was taking something that's true for most snakes and applying it to one group that it isn't entirely true for.

That thing about being too young to breed, may well be true. The larger the individual, the safer it should be for it to give birth or lay eggs. I've also read a few times that breeding them too young will stunt their growth.

well, there's nothing wrong there, but you can still just tell that they are not entirely sure of what they are talking about and it just annoys me when people who own one garter snake are instantly an expert, kind of like that guy i talked to at the show (see shunned at the show thread)

as for the growth stunting... I heard that too, and I do believe there is a such thing as being too young/small to breed even if their body physically makes eggs. A female bred too small has a huge, huge risk of eggbinding. As for the growth stunting, when I was stupid, and kept my corns together and they bred and she was still too young in my opinion... for a while after laying her eggs she was considerably smaller than the male. But now a year has gone by, I fed her well to make up for that and she has surpassed the male in size and weight and is now large enough to comfortably carry a clutch. And indeed... she is gravid this year! So, maybe sometimes it will stunt their growth but luckily at least in this case, that did not happen

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I did not know that there growth could be stunted by giving birth too young... that sounds so odd. And as far as keeping the snakes seperate.... I have a hard time on that one, mainly due to the thought that I see them go their seperate ways for all day, but come evening both of my snakes can be found together, just about every night. and it is not out of neccessity, since the tank is warm enough and has ample hiding spots. I personally do not think that the snakes are solitary animals as I have always been told growing up, and it is not only my garters that i have seen like this, but my boyfriends ball pythons act like this every now and then, too.

well, most snakes, including ball pythons are solitary animals and should have their own space. But I strongly feel that garters are semi-social in nature just by observing them in their vivs and in the wild. Like you, my garters have plenty of options as far as hiding places and places to hang out, even multiple of the same hide items in some cages (like cardboard tubes). And since much of my snakeroom is simply a constantly maintained temperature of around 80 during the day, one cardboard tube is no warmer than the other, and yet two or three snakes will still choose the same tube even if there are two side by side. And it's the same deal when I am observing them in the wild, you flip over a large piece of debris, and 3 or 4 garters are huddled all together under it. If you are walking along the edge of tall grass at daybreak, all the sudden you often come across a "pile" of garter snakes all sunning in the low grass... there is plenty of grass, yet they still choose to stick together!

[Stefan-A]

well, there's nothing wrong there, but you can still just tell that they are not entirely sure of what they are talking about and it just annoys me when people who own one garter snake are instantly an expert, kind of like that guy i talked to at the show (see shunned at the show thread)

I have slightly mixed feelings about that. That's something that works both ways. Some people with one snake behave like "instant experts", but I have also met a lot of people who seem to believe that a large collection makes them experts on everything. I've had a lot of questionable claims come from people who have kept snakes for several decades and have collections of several dozen snakes, but who have never actually kept garters. I've even heard some pretty astonishing nonsense come from people who have kept these animals for a long time. On the other hand, I've seen very young people with an impressive amount of knowledge about garters. I don't know if anybody's really noticed, but I try to show it when I'm unsure.

I think it's important to not be fooled into believing what people say just because they happen to have a high profile in some circles (moderator on a forum or high post count, lots of subscriptions on YT, face on TV etc) or because he's likable. The claims that people make should be judged on their own merits, regardless of the source.

as for the growth stunting... I heard that too, and I do believe there is a such thing as being too young/small to breed even if their body physically makes eggs. A female bred too small has a huge, huge risk of eggbinding. As for the growth stunting, when I was stupid, and kept my corns together and they bred and she was still too young in my opinion... for a while after laying her eggs she was considerably smaller than the male. But now a year has gone by, I fed her well to make up for that and she has surpassed the male in size and weight and is now large enough to comfortably carry a clutch. And indeed... she is gravid this year! So, maybe sometimes it will stunt their growth but luckily at least in this case, that did not happen

It's great to hear this type of personal experiences. I feel I learn a lot more from them, than from simple claims that it's either true or false.

[k2l3d4]

well, most snakes, including ball pythons are solitary animals and should have their own space. But I strongly feel that garters are semi-social in nature just by observing them in their vivs and in the wild. Like you, my garters have plenty of options as far as hiding places and places to hang out, even multiple of the same hide items in some cages (like cardboard tubes). And since much of my snakeroom is simply a constantly maintained temperature of around 80 during the day, one cardboard tube is no warmer than the other, and yet two or three snakes will still choose the same tube even if there are two side by side. And it's the same deal when I am observing them in the wild, you flip over a large piece of debris, and 3 or 4 garters are huddled all together under it. If you are walking along the edge of tall grass at daybreak, all the sudden you often come across a "pile" of garter snakes all sunning in the low grass... there is plenty of grass, yet they still choose to stick together!

And the biggest question that I would have then is.... if they are solitary animals, then why are they so often together?

[Stefan-A]

And the biggest question that I would have then is.... if they are solitary animals, then why are they so often together?

Because they benefit from it in some way, but it may also be coincidental.

It may improve their chances of survival if they are exposed to a predator compared to a situation where they can be picked off one at a time, for example. Or it may be a case of males deliberately seeking the company of a female, even outside of mating season.

Or it may be a question of something like them having similar needs at the moment, when it comes to temperature, for example. Especially in captivity, where you have a very limited number of hides, limited space and a clearly defined area intended for basking. My own snakes, however, are rarely found together. The ones that ever were found in the same spot fairly consistently, were a parietalis couple. The others seem to ignore each other completely.

The question is, why would they enjoy each other's company? They don't interact in any way, except during mating season and then they do definitely seek each other out for that one obvious reason.