cross breeding?

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Not really new in any way. If you've read The Origin Of Species, Darwin discusses hybrids and among other things their highly variable fertility and the distinction between species and varieties, at length. It's been known for a very long time, probably a lot longer than linnean taxonomy has been used, that the traditional definition of a species is not without exceptions.

Of course, the definition of a species as a group of individuals capable of interbreeding and capable of producing fertile offspring, IS the most concise definition.

I completely agree with you. My statement was actually referring to my locality and some of the attitudes I confront. It is quite likely that many Thamnophis populations maintain a "truer" lineage, so that they do indeed fit the classical definition of a species. In the Coastal Klamath area, however, I suspect the "rules" are being broken. In essence, we may have a geographical area here which harbors genes that challenges our breakdown of what we currently describe as 4 species. No one I talk to at the Redwoods Sciences Lab is willing to support the idea of a local "super race" - one that may absorb various known species into its cladistic heritage. Not surprisingly, many of the PhDs at the lab and HSU have done studies on these snakes way back when, so I suspect vanity and/or politics (i.e. fish and game protections) may be interferring with many of the projects trying to address the issue. I have too often witnessed self-righteousness and politics in the scientific community. It's just like these taxonomical battles between the lumpers and the splitters. Everyone wants to be right! Scientific truth is based on facts (which nature often rewrites). My biggest frustration is really the human arrogance which interfers with maintaining an open mind. The slap in the face goes to those not willing to at least acknowledge the possibility. This frustration isn't pointed at everyone; there are a plethora of similar studies being done all over the place, including here in California. In my remote section of NW CA though, there are still a lot of old-school academics with sticks up their arses. Forget priorities in unearthing new scienctific discoveries if they've got previously funded projects to maintain! They gotta keep those paychecks coming, even if the projects they've got going are a joke! I see some of the most fruitless projects (and timelines for those projects) in the national and state park systems, U.S. Fish and Wildlife, CA DFG, etc.

I understand genetics, geography, pheromones, ***** shapes, etc all play a big part in the continuing integrety of a species' lineage. I see most hybrids are human-aided crossings (NOT natural). There are exceptions. Gopher Kings (Pituophis X Lampropeltis) are rarely found in the wild, but they do occur in the wild for whatever reason (I would like to know). Considering the often orgiastic behavior of mating garters, I might surmise the possibilty of hybridization (even though under the classical definition it wouldn't really be hybridization anymore, right?). Perhaps some pheromonal mix-up, or perhaps just a really horny snake (They exist!) could be at play... We just don't know yet. We'll be chatting about this topic for threads to come.

Steve