W.t.f

[MasSalvaje]

They are still descendants of wild caught snakes. You can try to rationalize it all you want.
None of the captive bred animals would be available to anyone with out collectors doing what they do. I not saying it's right, but I understand it.

You are very wrong my friend. By your rational people that keep wild caught snakes and people that use wild caught snakes as a cash crop are one in the same.

I could be wrong but I don't see a response in this thread that says anything against wild caught animals. They are all against the reckless way some people collect to make a quick buck.

There is no rationalizing needed you are comparing rotten apples to oranges. Do I or have I kept wild caught snakes? Yes. Do I still care about wild populations and do what I can to help out by planning very carefully what I keep and what I don't? Yes. Do I collect everything I come in contact with regardless of the repercussions on the wild populations and then sell them as fast as I can to make a buck without properly caring for the animals to maximize profit? No.

I also highly disagree with your statement that none of the CBB animals that we have would be here without collectors like this. Most CBB animals come from people who actually care about the animals and where they came from enough to start captive breeding from their very carefully cared for wild caught stock. They do not come from people who collect massive amounts of animals from the wild. Those people don't care enough about the animals or the ecosystems from which they were taken to put in the time and money needed to produce CBB animals. That is clearly evident by the cost of the animals they are selling.

-Thomas

[MasSalvaje]

Everyone wants to avoid over collecting- even the collectors. If they wipe out where they collect, they have nothing to collect in the future. Hence these animals were collected after mating season. Any responsible collector does the same thing, and tries not to over collect in one area. This isnt good for them in the long run and they know this.

You are wrong about that as well. They are in it for the now money. Get it while you can, as fast as you can, and figure something else out later. If they really wanted to be in this longterm they would invest more in proper care techniques and facilities.

-Thomas

[Ameivaboy]

You are wrong about that as well. They are in it for the now money. Get it while you can, as fast as you can, and figure something else out later. If they really wanted to be in this longterm they would invest more in proper care techniques and facilities.

-Thomas

I am referring to professional collectors who do take concern to not over collect in areas. I know this because I know a few collectors.

[ConcinusMan]

What Thomas said. ^^^

I totally agree.

[Ameivaboy]

You are very wrong my friend. By your rational people that keep wild caught snakes and people that use wild caught snakes as a cash crop are one in the same.

I could be wrong but I don't see a response in this thread that says anything against wild caught animals. They are all against the reckless way some people collect to make a quick buck.

There is no rationalizing needed you are comparing rotten apples to oranges. Do I or have I kept wild caught snakes? Yes. Do I still care about wild populations and do what I can to help out by planning very carefully what I keep and what I don't? Yes. Do I collect everything I come in contact with regardless of the repercussions on the wild populations and then sell them as fast as I can to make a buck without properly caring for the animals to maximize profit? No.

I also highly disagree with your statement that none of the CBB animals that we have would be here without collectors like this. Most CBB animals come from people who actually care about the animals and where they came from enough to start captive breeding from their very carefully cared for wild caught stock. They do not come from people who collect massive amounts of animals from the wild. Those people don't care enough about the animals or the ecosystems from which they were taken to put in the time and money needed to produce CBB animals. That is clearly evident by the cost of the animals they are selling.

-Thomas

Where do people buy their original stock? from wholesalers and pet stores which get their stock where?.......

I never said anything about collectors breeding animals.

[ConcinusMan]

I am referring to professional collectors who do take concern to not over collect in areas. I know this because I know a few collectors.

Without laws in place to stop them, there are dozens of uncaring unscrupulous collectors for every one collector that takes care.

[Stefan-A]

I am referring to professional collectors who do take concern to not over collect in areas. I know this because I know a few collectors.

Then we come to another problem with collecting (or hunting, fishing or any other intentional removal of wildlife) and that's how to determine what is sustainable. When it comes to some game animals, people are actually out there counting individuals and studying population trends every season, while people are starting to do similar things with fish. But it's very likely that nothing of the sort is done with herps and without that information, it's unfortunately quite impossible to say whether or not the professional collectors do in fact manage to avoid over-collecting. It's not as simple as only collecting where animals seem plentiful, they can for example be plentiful but in a steep decline.

[Ameivaboy]

Without laws in place to stop them, there are dozens of uncaring unscrupulous collectors for every one collector that takes care.

I dont know about dozens, but sure, of course there is irresponsible collectors who dont abide by bag limits and other regulations. They should most certainly be stopped. There irresponsible people in every part of society.

As for the company in question selling the wild caught animals- this company did not collect them themselves.

In fact I wouldnt be surprised at all if all those animals came from several different collectors.

anyways, I'm done with this thread. It's like an evolutionary biologist arguing with a priest over the validity of religion.... pointless.

Cheers!

[MasSalvaje]

Where do people buy their original stock? from wholesalers and pet stores which get their stock where?.......

I never said anything about collectors breeding animals.

You do have a point there about pet stores and wholesalers. However you implied that anyone that has a snake needs to in some way or another justify themselves because they are just as guilty as the collectors. I take offense to that. Out of the dozens of reptiles I have purchased not one of them was from a wholesaler and only 2 have been from a pet store (my very first snake, and a Xenochrophis from Petco that I felt sorry for). All of my reptiles apart from those 2 have been from reputable breeders, so please inform me as to where I am in need of any rationalization or how I have been a hypocrite in any way.

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

All the more reason to NOT make garters "popular" I like things just the way they are. We may be few, but we care what happens to the snakes. Some of the most awesome vacation spots on earth were ruined because they became "popular".. just an example.