Red Sided: Questions

[gregmonsta]

It is called 'musking' and it's a natural defence mechanism. Hopefully, as it gets used to you and handling, this will happen less and less .... be prepared to be targeted for a few more of those sniper shots in the future though

[05brandon50]

Whatever it was, it was gross. It slung some at me and all directiobs with its tail haha

[guidofatherof5]

Whatever it was, it was gross. It slung some at me and all directiobs with its tail haha

Wait until they sling it and it gets in your mouth. I've only had that happen in the field. My Ranch snakes are to refined for such behavior

[mtolypetsupply]

Respectfully, I must disagree with those who say a snake doesn't change over time. I cannot say for sure that it *is* the handling that mellowed out my garters. They are '08's, and are now much more calm. I don't know if it is a factor of their age or my handling them.

I will say that I have handled my '09 babies more than I handled my '08 babies. In '08, I listened to my husband who told me I would "stress them out". In '09, I told him they were my snakes, and he can raise his snakes anyway he likes, but I'm handling mine. The '09's are much more calm than the '08's were at their age, and even come to the glass when I look in at them.

I can't say for sure, but this anecdotal evidence suggests handling does help calm them down. I also don't put them back until they settle down, at least a little. Even snakes can grasp cause and effect, IMO.

[ConcinusMan]

I didn't mean to make it sound "black and white". I was just offering my experience with WC garters. There are certain aspects to their disposition that just seem to remain rigid. Call it personality if you wish. The differences between your '08 and '09 snakes are an example of your personal experience with your snakes and those differences are not necessarily because of the handling. Some can learn to tolerate handling, some are just "dumb" and do not learn. I don't think that just grabbing the snake and forcing it to be handled is a good approach in this particular case. I also think that if you want a garter to handle, get one that tolerates it from the start, and generally calm. Some even seem to like the interaction.

I also tried the method (force handling) you suggest many times over many years with limited success. There's not only differences in personality from species to species but also differences among the sexes. I can't count how many times my male concinnus musked me over 18 years with me. He would also tail slap me if he wasn't in the mood to have his territory invaded by my hand. That much never changed, that's just who he was. Pretty much all the males I had were like that. High strung. Females have always musked me a few times the first few months, extremely rarely after that.

Ordinoides on the other hand have a completely different personality. Never had one musk me more than once or twice in the first few days, a few bite, then never again. They seem very calm if made comfortable in their new home. Most have been indifferent to handling. They don't seem to like or dislike it.

Some snakes "grasp cause and effect" some just do not.

It's good that brandon is getting this varying feedback though. In the end, it's going to have to be a learning experience. Only personal experience can teach him how to care for and handle his snakes. It helps if you have many years experience with many snakes of a certain species. Gives you a frame of reference. If you only have the experience with one individual or a few species, it's easy to draw conclusions. That goes for me too. I've never handled the canadian or eastern red-sides. (I've only handled WC CA red sides)

I predict that there are much calmer local snakes out there for him. He just happened to get a high strung one this time. She may calm down as she gets bigger, regardless of what he does.

[05brandon50]

yeah i know and thank you guys for all this support! like i said, my corn and garter are completely different when it comes to handling etc. and even if i never can handle my garter without it freaking out, im still going to "like" it. but the thing is with my garter is that it is hardly ever out of its hide(when everyone is home) and when it is, and i start to open the lid or even get close to the enclosure, it either darts real fast into any direction even if that direction is into the glass or it just sits there and looks like its breathing heavily and again, this is if it even comes out. and if i do actually manage to even tough it, it darts out of my hand quickly. so i was wondering, how do i try to handle it when it reacts this way? have you guys had any similar reactions? im just wondering if its bad to try and handle still and i should wait or should i just keep trying?

[gregmonsta]

Had to bring this up again - http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2892
On another note, Panama, my WC ribbon 'rescued' from a clueless shop, started off typically - ie she would musk and be agitated. I got her last April and after 4 months of interaction once or twice a week she stopped musking. The last two handlings in particular were really pleasant and it looks as she has adapted well.
Apart from Panama the only other garters in my current collection to have musked me are Xerxes (but then again I was medicating him at the time) and J (I had rudely interupted his brumation for an inspection).
I have to say also that I find the males more likely to come and climb onto my hand when proffered.

[ConcinusMan]

I think I mentioned it before about the temperature. Sounds like your snake is up to temp and is nice and warm. Any snake in that condition is going to react quickly, and the metabolism will be high so heavy or fast breathing would be normal.

I have and had snakes of many species including many different garters. A snake that is warm and breathing fast, alert, and is nervous is best handled when cool. Opinions will differ but I say cool that snake down for at least 8 hours at night. From your description, the snake just might be too warm. Garters IMHO are best kept rather cool, and will seek out the warm spots or basking areas. Many garters I have kept will hide and get a nasty attitude when it's very warm or humidity is too low. Yet when the air temperature is cool (60-70 degrees) they will come out and seek the basking spot, if it's a basking bulb, heat emitter, local bottom heat, etc. Seriously, I'm not there to monitor your temperatures but it can't hurt the snake to cool it down. I found that one good way to get a garter on a day activity schedule is to cool them down at night. When the heat comes on in the morning, they come out and bask.

May I ask where you got your garter. Forgive me, I have CRS. (Can't remember shi...)

I'm still wondering. Is your red-sided a CA red-sided? Like one of these?
http://www.californiaherps.com/snake...nfernalis.html

I ask because the "original" red sided garter is from the north and eastern part of the continent, roughly.

If you have a CA red side, then WC individuals can be a bit high strung. I have caught large red sides in CA and they put up one heck of a fight. Very spirited.

If you're in Palm Springs you're likely to have indoor climate control that might keep the air a bit too dry. A good heavy mist twice a day with a spray bottle would be good idea and can't hurt, as long as your substrate is dry. Even CA red sides live in low lying wet areas where the humidity is high.

[05brandon50]

Oh ok. I got my snake from one of my friend's small reptile shop down here. And my garter isnt a cal red-sided because it doesnt havevthat vibrant colors like they do and is just has dark greens and some red on its sides. And another thing, while im still home before school, i turn on all my reptile lights and i have a flat rock under the basking light(this is my basking spot) and i never hardly see it out underneith the light. Maybe it goes under after i leave or what idk. And when i turn off the heat lamp at night i sometimes do a little check up sorta on it and i come into the completely dark room after about an hour and i look inside and i see my garter out and on the warm basking rock with no light on. And other nights i just see it out and about at night. Is this normal? I know that they are mostly active during the day and im just confused. I mean its eating very well and defacating normally its just very reclusive and skittish it seems. Idk, what are your thoughts?

Oh and about the heavy breathing thing when i walk to watch it, its almost like it's "having a heart attack" not really but im just guessing its just frightened

[ConcinusMan]

Some snakes, even diurnal ones (active in day time) will hide all day and become active right around sundown and a few hours after dark. Sometimes my Amy does that. Generally they do this if it's very warm. But hey, active after dark is better than nothing.

I would suggest this: get one of those nocturnal basking bulbs. It will provide the heat, and light that you can see so you can view your snake. However, the light it produces cannot be seen by the snake so to him, it will be dark, but warm. I used to use those on baby king snakes and it worked out nicely.

Go ahead and provide a normal day with heat and light but use the nocturnal basking bulb at the same time every night for a few hours. Do that in an otherwise dark room and you'll get to see your snake more, and get to view activity that you would otherwise miss. With baby king or milk snakes this was the only way I got to see them active.