Expensive garters

[ConcinusMan]

I still can't believe any ball python is worth $10,000. Ridiculous! but that's not why I started this thread.

Scott recently sold some garter snakes around $300 each. They weren't even captive "designer" snakes. I don't get it. I guess that's one thing I'll never understand. pricing. Last year, CB baby concinnus were going for no less than $35 each. So, I thought, great. I can do that. I'll even sell them at only $20. WRONG! This year, I had to pretty much give them away. Go figure. I also don't understand why atratus are worth so much (at least, for now). Scott said "because they are rarely available". Well how many friggen blue concinnus are available? Still aren't worth $300 apparently, and still not worth the $100 price tag placed on drab olive atratus with a yellow stripe. Not really all that spectacular if you ask me.

How is this drab thing available in more numbers than the next snake...



worth at least 3X more than this?


Somebody enlighten me.

Seems that snakes as an investment isn't a good idea. By the time you buy snakes at the outrageous price, and are able to produce them yourself, so has everyone else and the price drops like a rock. There just isn't many of them out there in the wild. I won't do that.

I've had a lot of inquiries for blue concinnus (more so than normals) so demand is there. I just refuse to catch wild snakes in enough numbers to meet that demand, for the sake of profit.

Even so, I don't see anyone willing to pay $300 for that blue concinnus (she's WC and not for sale anyway) no matter how rarely available they are. I intend to use her to breed CB babies. The question is, even if CB blue anery babies are available in limited numbers, for the first time EVER, then why will nobody pay $100 for them, but they will pay that for a drab olive snake no prettier than a very ordinary garter snake?

Stumped...

[mb90078]

Looks to me like it's the business side of things more than anything. When I was looking into buying garters a little under a year ago, Scott was a little high (to me) on just about everything. But as you touched on, you're not just buying the snake itself, but you know that the person you're buying from is quite possibly one of, if not the best garter breeders out there, with a great reputation. Like you alluded to, he has all kinds of variety to offer as well. I bet if he were selling your blue con's, he'd get a hell of a lot more for them than you did.

One more small point about your specific criticism. The one garter is a rare breed, while yours is a rare morph. Just something to think about.

[guidofatherof5]

Nothing drab about that Thamnophis atratus. Beautiful snake.
Both snakes are wonderful.

[ConcinusMan]

Looks to me like it's the business side of things more than anything. When I was looking into buying garters a little under a year ago, Scott was a little high (to me) on just about everything. But as you touched on, you're not just buying the snake itself, but you know that the person you're buying from is quite possibly one of, if not the best garter breeders out there, with a great reputation. Like you alluded to, he has all kinds of variety to offer as well. I bet if he were selling your blue con's, he'd get a hell of a lot more for them than you did.

One more small point about your specific criticism. The one garter is a rare breed, while yours is a rare morph. Just something to think about.

Yeah, I was having some dialogue with Scott a few months ago about an Iowa albino. As common as they are, $110 shipped still seems a bit high. He is also known to purchase WC garters that are "special" genetically, even those that aren't new to the trade at all, and pay a lot of money for them. And yet, he flat out rejects concinnus of any kind, even the blue ones. He's not in the least bit interested at any price. That's also one of those things that make me go "hmm.." ??? Apparently, he knows something I don't.

This isn't really about Scott anyway, and I'm not in it for the money either, so don't misunderstand. I'm just trying to understand the market. I even asked Don what he thought. If I were to breed CB blue anery concinnus what does he think they would be worth, even if available for the first time? He didn't seem to think they were worth more than $60 and quite possibly would be worth even less. Again, I don't get it.

The one garter is a rare breed, while yours is a rare morph. Just something to think about.

Believe me, I have thought of that. All I hear is bragging about "the worlds first snow red-sided garter" well so what? Looks just like any other snow garter. It's also a rare morph but definitely not a rare breed. Do you think for one minute, if 20 or 30 of them were produced next year, that they wouldn't sell for much more than a blue anery concinnus? I think they would sell for much more even if I, the newcomer, was selling them.

I also don't agree that anyone is "the best" breeder. He's simply the richest, been at it longer, and has some rare morphs. That doesn't make anyone "the best" breeder.

But seriously, is that all it takes? a reputation? Seems rather shallow to pay extra just because the snake is coming from a certain person. I paid $75 shipped for my Iowa albino and he couldn't be any finer a snake if it came from anyone else. Scott wanted $110.

This is my first year ever selling snakes. I do it first because I love the hobby, love having litters born, etc. I shipped out quite a few this year. I don't recall ever having a single complaint. I even had people that insisted on going to another breeder to buy baby concinnus. They were the very same concinnus born right here in my house. The breeder got them from me! Somehow the fact that they're coming from a "reputable" breeder makes them worth more? Perhaps. But still, that doesn't seem to account for all the difference in price.

If Scott, Don, Shannon, any breeder with a "rep" were selling this blue anery or her babies, would anyone pay more than $60 for them, even if they were available for the first time ever? I have my doubts.

[zooplan]

If Scott, Don, Shannon, any breeder with a "rep" were selling this blue anery or her babies, would anyone pay more than $60 for them, even if they were available for the first time ever? I have my doubts.

Normal price for a Santa Cruz Garter Snake in Europe is 40 to 65 €.
If you manage to ship the blue concinnus or erythristic ordinoides to Europe you´ll get a nice price!

The reputation is not all: you´d have to permanentlly feed the market with informations and hymns about your breeding success, rareness and beauty of your offspring

Like said before: that´s business!
At least you need an own website and time for much posts in many forums.
Better would be to make other people to talk about you!

[drache]

first of all - I love that atratus, and if I had that kind of cash, I'd happily fork it over
and if I had more space I'd happily pay you more than sixty bucks for that concinnus also, but not much more
beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I myself care for the blue snakes more in theory than in practice. I like concinnus better than infernalis, and I like the normal concinnus just fine, so while I see that your concinnus is beautiful, I myself would prefer a dull melanogaster

As to the breeding and reputation part
I do believe that breeding a variety on a largish scale like Scott (for example) takes space, and recordkeeping, and swallowing losses, just like many other businesses.

I also don't agree that anyone is "the best" breeder. He's simply the richest, been at it longer, and has some rare morphs. That doesn't make anyone "the best" breeder.

That's plain silly. As far as I know, Scott still has a day job.
The breeding part is creating good conditions and wishing for the best - there are no guarantees. How you interact with your customers - that's a whole other realm. Scott has done right by me many times, and I've not heard any complaints about him, have you? There aren't many people selling garters that inspire this kind of confidence

of course there is also the other publicity model - the one whereby complaints apparently get you google notoriety http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/bu...blicity&st=cse
please don't go for that model, even if it seems easier than the other kind

[guidofatherof5]

The breeders you referenced have a track record. I think when people purchase a snake they want the peace of mind that comes with knowing the breeder has been doing it for some time. Call that reputation or something else but knowing that the person you are dealing with will be there next year is important.
I by no means think that it's something against you or your snakes but rather a lack of experience(time) in the market place.
It takes time to build a clientèle which is then spread by word of mouth which in turns creates new customers.
I think it's a time issue.
I'm sure Scott, Don, Jeff, and Shannon( and the others) could tell us about the early days when they were just getting started and much would be the same.
I know I have very little track record as a breeder but still I try. I'd love to make some money but don't really care at this point. I have a hard time letting any of my kids go.
I'd rather keep them all to myself and enjoy their company.
I do feel good that some of my snakes are in UT, NY, TX, CO, MO, IA, NE. Still plenty of States to go but I'm not in a rush.
"Resistance is futile, all the States will be assimilated"

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[mb90078]

I'm not arguing that any of my previous post is very rational, just pointing out why I think those differences exist.

But to answer your last question, yes, I think they would, if they marketed it as such (front page on their websites, heavy promotion, etc.).

[ConcinusMan]

OK, OK. Very good points. This is helpful. I still don't see a blue anery concinus, even if it's the "bluest of the blue" (They do vary) matching the price of some snakes/morphs that are more common, been around for a while, and being sold by reputable breeders and at this point, that is what I'm trying to understand.

And why do you suppose the price of regular concinnus dropped so much between last year and this year? Even Don told me recently, they weren't selling very well. I mean, I did manage to ship out as many as I needed to, but that involved flat out giving some away, and/or selling them at much less than I invested in caring for them until they were ready.

I noticed the same thing happened even with blue pugets. Shoot, last year they were very high. (triple digits)This year the price was ridiculously low in spite of their popularity and relative scarcity.

And people are still asking for them!

[guidofatherof5]

Buying trends?
I think that this forum has an effect on the snakes that are sold.
Someone posts a picture and comment are made that help drive and interest in buying that animal.
Coupled with who's selling it and bingo, prices go up.