Bob Mason's thoughts on my 3-stripe polymorphic concinnus

[ConcinusMan]

I wrote to Robert T. Mason of Mason Labs about the curiosity of my "dimporphic" (as I call them) T.s. concinnus, which produce both 3-stripe and regular single-stripe T.s. concinnus.

This is what I said:

I am revisiting an old curiosity which I looked into back in the early '90's. In Clark Co. Washington and even areas along the Willamette and Columbia river junction in Oregon I can find 3 stripe T.s. concinnus. Especially in the Salmon Creek, WA watershed I can find both types, the triple stripe version being less common. I've even produced litters from both types that were caught in the same population. There has in the past been doubt on my part that they are "pure" but there's no other sirtalis' anywhere near where I find them. Also, single stripe parents from that population still produce some 3 stripe babies and they do retain their lateral stripes into adulthood. Same goes for 3 stripe parents; the offspring are of both types. So, I came to the conclusion that this is just polymorphism, or more appropriately dimorphism.

Now I have people doubting me when I tell them that they are pure T.s. concinnus and that no crossing of subspecies has been done on my part and it's highly doubtful any crossing occurred in the wild.
Has any research been done on this particular subject? Any theories or thoughts you might have on why this seems to happen in this particular area would be welcome.


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Robert T. Mason, Professor of Zoology wrote back and said:

I don’t know of anyone who is studying this but it is certainly something that PNW herpetologists have been aware of for well over a century. My own opinion is that you are exactly right. This seems to be just a polymorphic trait that is interesting as to when and how it occurs, but one does not have to invoke crosses with other species to explain it. A comparable phenomenon is the extensive variation in color patterns in our local T. ordinoides.

It’s nice to hear that you have been breeding T.s.c.’s. That would probably constitute you as the local expert.

Best regards,

Bob Mason

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Honestly, I don't think it's as complicated as the polymorphism seen in northwesterns. It's just a simple gene that gets turned on of or off like a switch, I suppose. Some babies have it turned "on" others "off" but they all (snakes from the area where 3-stripes occur) carry it, and can pass it on. Being how it's not as common as the normal single stripe variety, it may even eventually prove to be recessive but that's just speculation at this point. All I know is, my 3 stripers are concinnus, just a little different, and still very attractive and desireable snakes to have around. Other than the extra stripes, they are every bit what I would expect from a concinnus as far as behavior and disposition goes.

They're just "special" is all.

I love them.

[Spankenstyne]

For what it's worth there are also (or were) some pure concinnus being kept in Eastern Canada that were also showing both single and 3 stripes. I believe the same person that produced JSI's beautiful examples has/had produced both. It's an oldschool guy that hates crosses & hybrids.

[ConcinusMan]

Really? That's good to know. You see? It's not like I made them up.

Yeah, for a snake first described as "stylistically congruous" there really is still some surprises and morphs within their genes.

I'm still blown away at the variety of different colors/patterns exhibited in the T.s. concinnus population I visited this year in Oregon. We're talking 3 or 4 distinct morphs and "in-betweeners" concentrated in a 3/4 square mile habitat area. Very cool. No 3-stripe there. Just cool colors and patterns variety.

But those are different than the one's we're talking about, of course.

[ConcinusMan]

I finally yesterday purchased the "Reptiles of the Northwest" Alan St. John. Lone Pine publishing 2002. Excellent book which goes into great detail about garter snakes in my area.

Under the subject of Oregon Red Spotted garters, I find this:

..."One uncommon color morph lacks the red markings, instead having a white or bluish-white dorsal stripe, side blotches and head"

I think they're talking about my blue/green anerythristic morph there.



Another, caught yesterday and temporarily detained for a few days for photos:


In addition to that description, the book also states:

"The most typical examples are found in Oregon's Willamette Valley, whereas those from the surrounding areas often have some characteristics of the fitchii subspecies"

My 3 stripe concinnus are an example of that. They do look somewhat similar to a fitchii. NOT found in the Willamette Valley, but instead, this morph is found in one of the "surrounding areas".

3 stripe adult concinnus pictured here, with a very "fitchii-like" look to the head, and well defined lateral stripes, but this concinnus morph is found far from any fitchii population.

[ConcinusMan]

There is one other variation I find in the same area as the anerythristics. I don't know what else to call it, other than "florescent orange". A typically normal looking snake but with a very unusual bright shade of orange that has a florescent "glowing" quality to it. Very pretty. Also, one of rarest encountered variations in my personal experience. (I've only found 3 out of hundreds of snakes observed, over the course many herping trips) I was lucky enough to find one yesterday. Sorry it's blurry, I'll get better one's later but you can definitely see what I mean about the color. Very pretty!



Just goes to show you that concinnus populations can be polymorphic too. Especially in NW Oregon outside of the Willamette Valley.


Another forum member that lives in my area has an adult pair of these and will be attempting to produce 2011 babies with this bright orange coloration.

One thing not mentioned in the book is that snakes outside the willamette valley or in the northern extreme of the valley, snakes tend to have dark heads or mostly black on the top of the head instead of a colorful orange head. And in Clark, Co. WA, turquoise "lips" and throat are the trend.



Many variations are typically dependent on where they are found but as I said, the population where I find anerythristic snakes has many different morphs within the same population ranging from very blue anery's, black and white anery's, florescent orange, hypoerythristics, normals, and widely varying patterns (polymorphism) but no "fitchii-like" snakes at that location.

[ConcinusMan]

" Especially in NW Oregon outside of the Willamette Valley."

CORRECTION: it should have read ...AND outside of..

[BUSHSNAKE]

hmmm very interesting to say the least...the "on off" switch makes alot of sence

[ConcinusMan]

hmmm very interesting to say the least...the "on off" switch makes alot of sence

just think of it as homozygous and heterozygous. Both the "normal" single-stripers, and the significantly different 3-stripers, carry the trait and some of the offspring will be homo for the 3-stripe trait. The rest would be the popular and familiar dark single-stripe morph. (hets for 3 stripe)

Like Jeff said:

lol, you guys take yourselves way to seriously, lighten up, it's just garter snake breeding, not rocket science or national security. I'm going to breed her and we will see what we get, may be something pretty, might be something ugly, or may even end up just being average, pretty simple stuff. If it makes something pretty then we can try to figure out the how and why and characterize the inheritance.

I do take it somewhat seriously and it's just a dang inheritable trait for the 3-stripe "fitchii look" but still just T.s. concinnus when you come down to it. Like Jeff said; not rocket science.

wow is all i have to say (i am amazed im able to idenitify polymorphism and string morphs together in sentences now......my correct english is gettn shot to hell )

GOOD! You will go far young Skywalker...

[mustang]

wow is all i have to say (i am amazed im able to idenitify polymorphism and string morphs together in sentences now......my correct english is gettn shot to hell )

[ConcinusMan]

For what it's worth there are also (or were) some pure concinnus being kept in Eastern Canada that were also showing both single and 3 stripes. I believe the same person that produced JSI's beautiful examples has/had produced both. It's an oldschool guy that hates crosses & hybrids.

JSI's ???

So, I'm wondering, what is it with nobody wanting the 3 stripe babies? I've only heard vague references about them not being "pure" or whatever. I'm sure the reasons vary from person to person. People bought up all the single stripe babies but I've sold very few of the others. I've even been very up front in telling people that the single stripe babies will likely produce both types and that they carry the same genes as the 3 stripe ones, so it can't be that they are afraid of getting the 3 stripe gene in their breeding bloodlines.(unless they just think I'm BSing them.)

Any thoughts? I'd like to hear some opinions or your own reasons for shying away from the 3 stripe babies. Are they not good looking snakes? Are you afraid they aren't "pure"? Do you just like the single stripe look better? Let's hear it.

At any rate, I think I'll leave those out of my breeding plans for 2011 and just concentrate on producing anery's next year. I did have a lot of requests for those but didn't have any litters this year.