Hybrids?

[lokai99]

So I have seen a few pics of interphases and such and it seems to me that hybrids are somethingthat readily happen in the garter snake world. Is hybridizing such a problem within the community? I'm getting my first garter from a trusted source so that's not gonna be an issue for me just curious as to how often hybrid snakes are encountered within the captive trade.

[infernalis]

Not often, most of the Thamnophis fans I have been in contact with over the years are purists.

I do have a checkered / Eastern cross that I got from a forum member back in 2008.

[ConcinusMan]

Hybrid corns, rat snakes, king / milk snakes are commonplace. Hybrids are fairly uncommon when it comes to garters. I think that crossing two different species is a mistake that I hope will not invade the garter hobby.

Let's not confuse the word "Hybrid" and "Intergrade". A hybrid would be for example T. Radix X T. sirtalis. Hybrids do not generally happen in the wild but intergrades do.

An intergrade (that occurs naturally) would be for example T. sirtalis concinnus X T. sirtalis pickeringii. (both are t. sirtalis but different subspecies.) T. sirtalis concinnus X T. sirtalis fitchii happens as well.

Not anything necessarily wrong with an intergrade but personally, I wouldn't want one.

[lokai99]

I have seen tons of hybrid kings, rats, corns, and milks. I have heard that the producers often have to work very hard at gettign say a corn to be receptive to a kingsnake. I didn't know if such is the case with garters where a hybrid would have to be intentionally created or if garters would just 'hook up" with any other garters species. Reason I asked is I saw a pet store that kept all their garters in one big tank because they were all garters. I think one was a concinnus and the other all looked pretty varied. So my question is this. He had a girl who to me looked pretty gravid. Do I assume she's fertilized by a different species or is it more likely wherever he got her from probably had a male concinnus? I'm not planning to get her, I don't even have a garter yet and multiple babies would be too tough of an undertaking for me.

[ConcinusMan]

Are you sure it's a concinnus? Too many people misidentify or mislabel any garter snake with red on the sides.

I can tell you this: Of the native garters in my area, there are T. sirtalis (concinnus) and T. ordinoides and they are always found sharing habitat and dens. Hybrids between these two NEVER occur in nature. I've kept both species together right out of the fridge. The males were going nuts over the smell of their own females but were NOT interested in the other species at all.

IF that "concinnus" really is a concinnus I can almost guarantee it would have bred with it's own species (T. sirtalis) before it would breed with another species.

sirtalis is "compatable" with, and will breed with T. radix and perhaps a few others but for the most part, they stay with their own kind. That might not sound like much, but there are a lot of different T. sirtalis out there. There's eastern garters, CA red-sided garters, san francisco garters, etc. ALL are T. sirtalis so crossing those subspecies are not hybrids, they are intergrades.

[guidofatherof5]

I can tell you this: Of the native garters in my area, there are T. sirtalis (concinnus) and T. ordinoides and they are always found sharing habitat and dens. Hybrids between these two NEVER occur in nature.

You know what they say? Never say never!
Nature is full of surprizes.

[ConcinusMan]

You know what they say? Never say never!
Nature is full of surprizes.

OK, let me put it this way. You'd have a better chance of finding a 8-legged frog.

[lokai99]

Ok that answers it for me. I'm pretty sure it's a concinnus,

[ssssnakeluvr]

we find vagrans and fitchi in the same dens here....haven't found an intergrade yet!

[ConcinusMan]

we find vagrans and fitchi in the same dens here....haven't found an intergrade yet!

Yup! but that wouldn't be an intergrade. That would be a hybrid. T. elegans (vagrans) X T. sirtalis (fitchii.) .