Feeding Frogs?

[Ibkukin]

I have been feeding my garter snake small frogs which I catch outside. I have tons of them outside and they are always readily available certain times of the year. He seems to like them very much and I never have trouble getting him to eat. As a matter of fact he will immdediately eat as many as I put in there every day. He is about 13" long.

I have two questions.

1. Are frogs good for him to eat?

2. How many should I give him and how often?

Thanks!

[guidofatherof5]

Welcome to the forum. Glad you joined.
Frogs are good but be aware they do tend to carry parasites. Switching him over to a more safe food(nightcrawlers, salmon,tilapia, guppies, f/t(frozen/thawed) pinkies) gives a much less chance he'll have a heavy parasite load.
Finding a good Herp. Vet in your area is a good thing to know whether you use them right away or not. Getting a fecal sample in for a parisite screen will give you peace of mind after you switch him over on food. Giving a variety in a diet is great. Many, if not all foods have pros and cons. Giving variety balances that all out.

If possible post a photo so he can be identified.
I feed my babies 2 or 3 times a week. Adults get once a week and as a treat twice a week sometimes. Garters will eat everyday but since captive snakes don't get the same amount of exercise it can lead to obesity. I hope this has been helpful and once again, welcome.

[drache]

I wonder about frogs . . .
my thinking is that whatever people can catch in their yards probably has less of a parasite load than anything that's been cycled through the pet industry - not sure why exactly I have that belief

[Sid]

I wonder about frogs . . .
my thinking is that whatever people can catch in their yards probably has less of a parasite load than anything that's been cycled through the pet industry - not sure why exactly I have that belief

Rhea,
I lost two gravid female garters feeding solely frogs from my yard before knowing of the parasite problem.

I don't think an occasional frog will hurt, but I wouldn't let them be a primary diet.

[drache]

Rhea,
I lost two gravid female garters feeding solely frogs from my yard before knowing of the parasite problem.

I don't think an occasional frog will hurt, but I wouldn't let them be a primary diet.

that's good to know
not that I even have the opportunity
that had to hurt though . . .

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I myself wonder about the frog thing, and would love to see a bit more factual stuff rather than just everyone repeating that frogs are parasite laden creatures to be avoided at all costs. Is that an actual fact and is there documented proof somewhere that frogs are parasite laden and the risk of spread is super dangerous to our snakes? Or do we just repeat what we heard through the grapevine, that may or not be an assumption that some random herp keeper decided in their mind and started telling people, over and over? I myself have long avoided frogs unless I NEED them for the parasite reason, but not without questioning it heavily. I have used both frogs and salamanders to start finicky eaters, both wild caught snakes and captive bred, both large and small. None of them are dead or sickened of parasites, and I am not talking 1 or 2 snakes here, I am talking many. Frogs are very sensitive creatures themselves, and an overload of parasites or even the slightest change in their environment can kill them rather quickly. I would feed a frog I found in the back yard before I would use one that was ordered from a mass supplier as a feeder, that not only is WC but extremely stressed and sickened. I received feeder frogs with a snake purchase and I didn't want to use them because they looked very worn out, and I set these little tree frogs up and fed them well only to watch all 6 die within two weeks despite my valiant efforts.

The problem with worrying about parasites is that they are simply everywhere, all of the time. Snakes can even get parasites from frozen thawed captive bred rodents. A parasite can make its way into your snake simply by you going out into the yard and bringing eggs in on your shirt or hands and then allowing the snake to contact them. The problem with parasites is that their methods of spreading are invisible to the naked eye, and that not only makes them very efficient at what they do, but very scary and I think sometimes parasite risks give us keepers a little more paranoia than they are really worth. I have backed down on my parasite paranoia a little in realizing that it's a little too much worry. I realize now that there is a risk of parasite infestation every time my snake eats anything, from ANYwhere. The best I can do is feed the healthiest food items I can acquire, and know the signs and be on the lookout for changes in my snakes, and recieve proper treatment when necessary. That is a far more efective method of parasite control than speculating what *may or may not* be lurking in a food item.

One thing about parasites that kind of skeeves me is that 1 in every 3 americans is living without a clue that they are hosting some sort of gastrointestinal parasite. I shudder to think what may be living inside of me. Remember, parasites are built to live unnoticed and in harmony with their host, and only if the host falls sickly or ill, or if the parasite is purposely malicious to benefit it's own reproductive cycle, will the host sicken or die because of them. The usual cause of a parasite related death is that the parasite ends up in a host that it's not supposed to, and it does all the wrong things because it's in the wrong body.

[DrKate]

my thinking is that whatever people can catch in their yards probably has less of a parasite load than anything that's been cycled through the pet industry

Yes and no... Diseases do spread better in dense, stressed-out populations such as feeder breeding colonies, and some parasites can thrive under those conditions. BUT... Many parasite species require more than one host species to complete their life cycle - for example, a vertebrate and an invertebrate host - so wild-caught prey that have been living outdoors in a natural environment really do have more of those kind of parasites.

There is also the fact that parasites usually adapt to particular host species. In their normal host, they don't to much harm and are pretty much just along for the ride. But if they get into an *abnormal* host, they can cause severe illness. So a perfectly healthy wild-caught frog could be carrying a parasite that would make your snake very sick (this scenario is most likely for the lungworms already mentioned). Unfortunately, dissecting a specimen and seeing how many parasites you can find doesn't tell you much about whether any of those could in fact spread to your snakes (unless you can identify the parasites and know their biology). If the parasites in your local frogs can't spread to snakes, then eating a parasite-laden frog is just that much more nutrition for the snake.

So my guess is, there are risks to each kind of food source. I wish I could offer more specific information than that. I don't know enough about the parasites of snakes (or frogs/fish/mice/earthworms) to know which parasites and therefore which food sources are most worrisome. And of course, in the case of the wild-caught foods, risks change depending on where you are, what species exactly you're feeding, what time of year it is...

I don't want to make any promises I can't keep, but I may be able to ask some bona fide parasitologists what they think about what prey items are "cleaner" in terms of parasites that would harm snakes. If I get anything useful I'll post back here, since so many of us are using wild-caught prey of one kind or another (even earthworms are part of the life cycle of some parasites).

[Stefan-A]

Unfortunately, dissecting a specimen and seeing how many parasites you can find doesn't tell you much about whether any of those could in fact spread to your snakes (unless you can identify the parasites and know their biology).

So true. However, my point was first and foremost to address the question whether or not they are parasite-laden.

I don't want to make any promises I can't keep, but I may be able to ask some bona fide parasitologists what they think about what prey items are "cleaner" in terms of parasites that would harm snakes. If I get anything useful I'll post back here, since so many of us are using wild-caught prey of one kind or another (even earthworms are part of the life cycle of some parasites).

That would be greatly appreciated.

[celticguitar]

That is a very good question. I think collecting frogs from an area where this an abundance of frog won't destroy the population if you are the only one doing it. There is a local woodland pond where they are so many Green and leapord frogs you almost step on them walking along the edge of the pond. I see atl east 4-5 garter snakes with a casual look. I read that frogs are a good marker as to the cleanlyness of a pond as far as pesticides and this pond has a ton. I saw in a 2 foot area near the shore at least a hundred newly morphed frogs and toads (spade foots!) etc. So there is plenty to eat. As far as parasite load goes? I guess if it's a clean area the load would less? but not nil and I think all live stuff even pet store unless it's frozen dead mice are going to have bacteria and probably parasites because do you think they really care?. If you have a good healthy specimen of snake with a nice clean healthy enviroment I don't think they would overwhelmed but the occasional frog. My garters are wild caught and they look healthy clean and active they came form this pond area I spoke of but I feed them worms and guppies although one ate a frog on the way home because I did have a seperate container for the snake and frog ooops
Dwight

[Stefan-A]

That is a very good question. I think collecting frogs from an area where this an abundance of frog won't destroy the population if you are the only one doing it.

It would depend on the total amount removed from the area.