Rodent diet

[adamanteus]

Okay, so we all know how convenient it is to feed our animals rodents, if they'll take them, nice square meal: flesh, bone, vitamins and minerals all rolled into one easy to use package.. Okay many Garters will take young rodents in the wild if they get the opportunity, but how frequently this might occur, is questionable.

Just to play "devils advocate" here, and maybe start an interesting thread. Perhaps we should consider an animals' natural diet more thoroughly, before we embark on a feeding regime of solely (or predominantly) mice? For many larger Garter specimens, this diet may well be suitable, but what about for smaller species or individuals, or species which just don't take rodents in the wild?

How about the risk of impaction in the lower gut from excessive hair? I speak from experience when I say that this can occur, and when it does it can be fatal. (I've never seen it occur with Thamnophis, but I don't know why they would be any different?) Could toxins build up over a long period of time in the blood/tissues from such a foreign diet? I don't know.

Here's a thing.....In the UK we had the recent outbreak of CJD (mad cow disease). For years the beef industry had been feeding cattle high protein pellets made from chickens' feet and recycled human excrement (who knew?), this gave a high beef yield and dispensed with the need for grassy fields. All went well for who knows how long, and then sudddenly...well, the rest is history.

It's just a thought. I use rodents and will continue to do so, but maybe I'll build a worm farm and encourage frogs into my garden by digging a pond to give a bit more variety and to offer a more natural diet.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, but I think it's good to question what we read, rather than to follow blindly . Thanks,

James.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have fed my babies pinkie parts at a small size and worked them on to whole rodents as soon as they are big enough. I have never had a problem with that. Scott Felzer does the same. I wouldn't use amphibians as they can transmit parasites. giving a variety is fine also. i have never heard of any toxins or anything building up in garters. I know wandering garters are big on eating rodents inthe wild.
I have never had any impactions in garter snake guts feeding this or any diet....they routinely digest bones in dmall amphibians and fish in the wild so I don't think there's a problem with that. The only impactions I have seen are when substrate is swallowed.

[adamanteus]

I have seen numerous cases of hair impaction (never seen bone) in reptiles from a diet of "fuzzies" (I'm not sure what you call newly furred mice in the US). As I say, never in Thamnophis, but surely it's worth considering.

As I said previously, some of the larger Thamnophis species may well eat rodents in the wild, but certainly not all species.

Yes, I agree, amphibians can carry parasites, but wild snake populations can cope with this, even we humans carry them. At least with our captive specimens we can treat for parasites if it becomes necessary. It seems to me that many reptile species are popular with pet keepers because of their ability to adapt to the artificial live-style we impose upon them, but should we be making them adapt or should we be adapting our husbandry techniques to better suit them?

[Snaky]

I try to give some variety with the feeding sessions. Most of the time the food consists of pinkies/fuzzies, catfood, smelt or another fish and earthworms. (With B1 or Ca or multivitamin addition)

Yes, I agree, amphibians can carry parasites, but wild snake populations can cope with this, even we humans carry them. At least with our captive specimens we can periodically treat for parasites.

This is not a good idea in my opinion. Treating your snakes for parasites every several months doesn't seem all that healthy at all. It's always stressful and you need to take good care of the dose's. I think it's better to provide alternatives, and you have enough possibilities to alternate.

[GarterGuy]

Like a lot of people on the forum, I feed a diet of primarily rodents, but supplement with other prey items to add variety to the diet. I do wonder about the affects of a rodent diet on a group of snakes that does not specialize in rodent feeding.
I say specialize, because there are many examples of Thamnophis to do feed on rodents....as was stated before, T.e.vagrans often prey on rodents....I imagine this is due to the fact that they can be found far from what is considered "typical" Thamnophis haibtat where the amphibians and fish that so many others prey on can be found. There are also reports of insular populations of Maritime garters (T.s.pallidulus) that are the primary predators of rodents on those islands. I think that garters for the most part can be called generalized feeders that specialize in what ever prey item is most available for them in their habitat.
As far as garters being able to take on adult rodents, many other nonconstritors take on adult rodents...like racers. Now it's a big garter that's going to take on an adult mouse, since it's got to kill it by just biting it or smashing it into stuff.
I think the problem with possible impactions due to fur and stuff is due to the fact that we feed our snakes bigger mice then they could have possibley ever eaten in the wild. Personally, I don't feed any of my garter snakes mice that are much larger than twice the size of their head. I may have to feed more than one a feeding, but I think this is easier on them. So yeh, there's my two cents on the whole thing (that's a long paragraph for two cents! ).
Roy

[KITKAT]

When I feed rodents, I never exceed ten days old. That means that I may feed two pinkies rather than an older mouse, and when a snake needs to graduate to something quite larger, I use rat pinkies.

[drache]

my vet advocates variety, since that most closely recreates what happens in nature.
So while I feed primarily rodents, I do try to give them something els at least once a month.
My rodent supplier also advised me to feed garters nothing hairier than peach fuzzies, because of the possibility of impaction

[adamanteus]

I think your vet is very wise then. I believe that if we try to mimic nature as closely as we can we won't go far wrong. Mother Nature has much to teach us, if we will only take the time to learn.

[Thamnophis]

I believe that the amount of rodents that are eaten in the wild by Thamnophis is very low.
Cannot prove that, but that is what I believe.
I think the chance that they find (accidentally) a nest with pinkies is not that great. But when they do, they probably will eat them.
I doubt if a gartersnake easily can catch an adult mouse. Catching a live, wild mouse looks like a big risk for a garter snake getting injured. Fish, amphibians and worms are much easier.
When they find a dead mouse, maybe they will eat it.

Every specimen that I take care of gets every feeding:

1 pinky
Smelt
Some pieces of chickenheart
These items are all dusted with some Minerall indoor, Gistocal and Carmix.

When available they get every now and then one or two worms.

My snakes are all juveniles. When they grow bigger I will change the pinky for a bigger mouse.

[KITKAT]

I am not suggesting by the following anecdote, that eating pinkies in the wild is common... but...

Two years ago, I captured a gravid female T sirtalis under a board. She was lying in a shrew runway, with her head sticking out one end of a shrew nest, her tail out the other end...

The nest was empty.

She later birthed 20 young.