A disturbing trend, really disturbing

[infernalis]

Lately I have been reading a lot of posts regarding birthing & picking up gravid females either unintentionally or outright targeting gravid females simply to feel "included" in the breeding forum.

This is not to be taken so lightly, it is not some cute thing, "Awe I'm going to have babies" it is VERY serious stuff.

Or oh they all died, better luck next time SHOCKING!!!!

If someone is new to keeping snakes, that person should have the self control to keep one snake for a period of time, learn the hobby, advance skill and knowledge. Gain understanding of natures process.

When James brought this issue up once before, the topic went onto several tangents until the thread became a photo gallery of pretty red snakes, completely losing sight of the point at hand.

The miracle of birth is awesome, soul stirring and inspires joy in many people, but in reality would you want someone who just read "Md. Magazine" for the first time to deliver YOUR children?

Unless the resources/money/housing/space and proper food are at your disposal, intentionally gathering gravid females just so one can feel included in the "Baby buzz" is a disaster waiting to happen.

And then when the disaster does in fact happen, (all too often) it appears if there is no lesson learned, except that it's OK, just go grab another and try again.

Birthing and caring for neonate snakes is not this easy walk in the park many folks try to portray it to be. It is hard work and requires dedication and should not be taken lightly.

Disrupting the balance of nature to satisfy one selfish desires to play doctor in the delivery room is WRONG

[Garter_Gertie]

Bravo! (clap, clap, clap)

[Stefan-A]

I definitely agree and although I've tried to keep my mouth shut, I do find it disturbing.

Well, some of my opinions on the issue came up in the thread Wayne is talking about, but I would like to add, that I find it less ethical than just catching a non-gravid snake. That's the crap they do in the third world. They catch gravid females, keep them until they give birth or lay their eggs and then release the females that survived pretty much just anywhere. The chances of survival are piss poor both for the offspring and the female, with all the stress from being gravid and being caught and kept under substandard conditions. The conditions may be better here, but from what I've seen, only marginally, considering how inexperienced some are. The main difference is that over there, they're doing it for money, much like "Bob". That's actually easier to understand, than the phenomenon I've seen here.

Now, I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in particular or blame them for any mistakes, we have all made mistakes, but it appears to me that some aren't taking it as seriously as the situation warrants. Again, I want to point out that I'm not talking about any person in particular. If you feel that what I say here is about you because of something that's going on in your life right now, I assure you, the timing is coincidental. I tend to wait for others to bring up a subject before I express my views.

I really hope Wayne's analysis is incorrect, that people really aren't trying to play 'mommy' because of some silly baby fever. Catching a gravid female and having it give birth, doesn't make you a breeder. You don't get any credit or respect for it, not from me anyway.

From what I've read here, elsewhere on the net and in literature about garters, they're are pretty much considered trash snakes in North America (and to some extent here, too), in part because of the abundance of cheap wildcaught specimens on the market and "free" ones in the wild. I've seen people here absolutely revel in that attitude.

I didn't expect to have to witness it here on this forum. When I first came here, I was happy to find that people here didn't have that attitude at all. Most people here were quite serious about keeping and caring for their garter snakes. And why wouldn't they be, they had actually paid significant sums of money for their snakes, and they knew what they wanted when they bought them. They didn't buy just any random $5 garter from a pet store, and if there's something I've noticed in my life, it's that how much energy, time and money a person is willing to spend on an animal, is directly correlated to how much the animal itself costs. I cringe every time I see somebody who's looking for a cheap snake, because I know that's what the person is going to focus on when it comes to feeding, housing and health care. Of course there are always exceptions, but I see a clear correlation.

Naturally, I don't expect anyone to agree with me just because I have expressed an opinion. Just accept that this is what it looks like from my perspective, even if you think I'm harsh, unfair or just plain wrong. I'm not here to force my opinions on others.

But there it is. I may have strayed from the issue Wayne brought up, but it's something I tend to do.

[Lori P]

I concur. One of things I loved about this forum when I joined was the seriousness with which people took their chosen hobby. This forum has a high standard of care and ethics, as well as an intellect not often found in forums I've frequented before.

I actually found my self typing "congrats" over and over lately and suddenly realized the other day that I didn't really mean it... and I intend to stop the empty words. I applaud and respect those on here who breed for quality and integrity in the lines, and who don't produce more than they can care for and re-home. I, also, don't want anyone to feel singled out or attacked, I just want to agree with Wayne and Stefan that breeding is a serious commitment, and shouldn't be taken lightly or done just for fun and entertainment. These are lives we are responsible for.

I know I am the first one to joke and giggle and digress. But never with the intention to lessen the importance of these animals' lives and care and well being, or our responsibilites in these matters. Breeding is a serious undertaking and should not be taken on carelessly or impulsively. Removing gravid females from the wild is something that should be given a great deal of thought, and then, yet more thought... I, personally, could never do it (unless that purple garter comes along, of course ).

Thanks, Wayne, for bringing this out there again. It never hurts for all of us to give pause from time to time to re-evaluate our reasons, purpose, methods, and husbandry of our snake keeping hobby. It's all too easy to get sidetracked and let those high standards that I hope we all strive for to slip a bit. A true hobbyist knows when to backtrack to re-set those standards.

[GartersRock]

Well said all of you!! I completely agree.... Definantly needed to be said!

[Lumpy]

So let's be fair. Those of you who consider yourselves experienced and knowledgeable when it come to Garders, reptiles or what have you, started out as experts? You can learn from others, read book, learn terms, but you gain knowlegde and understanding through your own personal experiences. I think caring for any animal is more a factor of maturity than money. I grew up watching my Dad drive a car, but I was no expert the first time I got behind the wheel. We all have to start out as novices.

While I agree that keeping a captive Garder for the sake of babies is self serving and not smart, I think those who have considerable background with Garters have a duty to educate, assist and have discussions like this. I wouldn't take for granted that there are caring and engaged people who desire to learn and do well by their snakes.

I have to be honest, and I'm not pointing fingers either, but the flip side of this is a certain amount of brow beating I see on the forum as well. I don't think that attitude is endearing to the cause either. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there's a ying and a yang to all this. I think it wise to point out possible issues and take the opportunity to educate owners about the health and saftey of Garters to those less knowledgeable, but to outright suggest that the less experienced are incapable is foolish. I see it as a prime opportunity to empart experience to those seeking it. But there's a certain level of "those who don't know, shouldn't have them" attitude that I feel is counter productive and will drive people away. I don't see as an inviting reason for anyone to stick around and learn.

Again, sure there are some people (not suggesting anyone here) who shouldn't own any living/breathing thing that relies on it's caregiver for all things. However, someone who comes to this forum to learn about a Garter they caught, bought or was given is at least showing an inkling of interest in learning about the nature and care of their pet. I think that should be nurtured. Nothing wrong with being direct with someone who you think may be harming a snake, but how you approach it makes all the difference. Being flippant, and yes I've seen it here, isn't going to help anyone's cause.

As Stephan stated, these are my opinions, take them for whatever they are worth to you.

Lump

[Stefan-A]

But there's a certain level of "those who don't know, shouldn't have them" attitude that I feel is counter productive and will drive people away.

Some people keep rushing headlong into situations they should be able to recognize as problematic, especially for a beginner. Others keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again, without seemingly learning anything. At some point you just run out nice ways of telling them to slow down and reconsider.

Anyway, I'm off. Hopefully I'll be able to get online at some point these next couple of days.

[Zephyr]

I think that to take a gravid female from the wild, and be inclined to keep her babies shows a certain level of knowledge in the subject itself. My friend Abby said her friend caught a gravid garter snake and released it and its babies once they were born. To want to care for the snake, nonetheless identify it as gravid, requires a certain level of skill and knownledge in the first place.
Also, I think that the most crucial point to taking gravid snakes is making sure the area you're taking them from can endure the loss of both the ma and her babies. Henceforth, it's everything but responsible to go to an area with only a few garters and swipe the biggest, fattest female you can find. (The exception to this would be at some one's house or on there land, where the snake would either be killed by the home/land owner or meet Mr. Choppy the lawnmower.)

[Stefan-A]

I think that to take a gravid female from the wild, and be inclined to keep her babies shows a certain level of knowledge in the subject itself. My friend Abby said her friend caught a gravid garter snake and released it and its babies once they were born. To want to care for the snake, nonetheless identify it as gravid, requires a certain level of skill and knownledge in the first place.
Also, I think that the most crucial point to taking gravid snakes is making sure the area you're taking them from can endure the loss of both the ma and her babies. Henceforth, it's everything but responsible to go to an area with only a few garters and swipe the biggest, fattest female you can find. (The exception to this would be at some one's house or on there land, where the snake would either be killed by the home/land owner or meet Mr. Choppy the lawnmower.)

I couldn't disagree with you more. Even if a person is capable of identifying a gravid garter, doesn't mean that the person knows the first thing about keeping, caring for and raising garters or is otherwise suitable for the job. On the contrary, it shows a fairly careless and selfish attitude to do so, even if the person may just be well-meaning and naive.

I also disagree with the point you're making about only taking from areas, that can endure the loss of the female and the offspring. Who here can honestly tell (and I do mean estimate for real, not just guess) whether or not the population can endure it? That one person isn't the only one catching or killing snakes and it adds up quickly. That's one way to reduce a healthy population to a level where it starts to collapse on its own. And like I pointed out in the other thread, catching a gravid female does as much damage to the population, as killing it. If it's about feeling good about having saved a snake's life, then that's something I think is legit, but that's not a real favour. Leaving it alone and hoping that it will escape detection or will avoid being run over by the lawnmower, is already a much safer alternative. Maybe even better than relocation.

[GartersRock]

I don't think anyone is saying that you *must* be experienced to care for a gravid snake or her babies... Sure it is better. But I don't feel *totally* necessary. It just seems to be a trend lately that seems to be taken so lightly. It's serious business.