Collecting Gravid Females.

[adamanteus]

So, who's up for a heated debate? Shall we discuss the ethics of taking gravid females from the wild?

It seems that every day there is another thread featuring a gravid female taken from the wild, and a guessing game as to how many babies they will have. I'm not sure we should be doing/encouraging this.

Is this going to have a negative effect on local populations?
Aren't these snakes readily available captive bred?
Do we have enough trusted friends, who we know can take care of all these young when they're born?
Surely it's cleverer to raise a pair from neonates and then have a successful breeding, rather than just go out and pick up a fat female?

Comments?

[Zephyr]

I always think about this too... That's why during the summer months if I remove any eastern garter snakes, I aim for juveniles, preferably males. Oddly, I tend to find mostly gravid females in the summer. :P
What I could use as a counter-argument is that most of the time, if you remove a gravid female, you're one of the only people doing it, seeing as most people don't really go out in the wild and grab for garters as pets. And when they do, they generally let them go a few weeks later as opposed to keep them as we enthusiasts do.

[reptileparadise]

I'm not sure what the effects will be on the populations. One female 'gone from the system' shouldn't be a big deal. The problem is that it doesn't stay with just one female.
I guess around 10 or 20 females are posted here, but just imagine what 'readers' might think of this?
"hey, an easy way to earn money for my new ipod" or something like that.

I personally think its wrong to collect gravid females from the wild. For the simple reason that its not necessary. Its also possible to wait a month or two and collect non gravid females.
Collecting one female results in (indirect) collecting 10, 20 or maybe even more snakes (i know, not all of them survive)

Its hard to explain properly in english...But my main answer is...against...

Surely it's cleverer to raise a pair from neonates and then have a successful breeding, rather than just go out and pick up a fat female?

I wouldn't say cleverer...I would say faster and less thought trough

[adamanteus]

I personally think its wrong to collect gravid females from the wild. For the simple reason that its not necessary...

I agree with this. Isn't part of the reason we keep these animals is so that we can feel a sense of pride and achievement when our snakes breed in captivity?

[Snake lover 3-25]

well.... i believe that sooty is one of meadows babies and i am very happy to find her gravid or not... if i had not caught meadow i would prob not have discovered my love for garters.... i let 17 out of 18 of her babies go and now it seems that i have few or maybe even no garters in my area.... we have so many predators and so few snakes that they would have almost no chance of survival... i don't think that the small amount of babies that sooty will have would have ever grown to maturity... THAT is the one and only reason that i have chosen to keep/ give away the young... if she had been larger and therefore had had a larger litter then i would have chosen to release the young.... however that is not the case.

[Snake lover 3-25]

also i have never seen a garter locally for sale otherwise i would def. captive breed... but for now i have only 2 adult females and a male that is closely related and i have no intentions to inbreed.

[Lumpy]

Well, I'm as good of an example as anyone, so sure duscussion is good.

If you remember in my case, which was about a month or so ago, my wife and I were digging up a flower bed and disturbed the habitat of a Garter we had no idea was there. The flower bed sits right up against the house.

When we ran across the Eastern, other than chasing it out of the area we were working in, we left her alone. Intially, we had no plans of disturbing her. And at the time, I only knew it was a Garter snake, not it's sex, or what the heck "gravid" meant.

"Gary", as we jokingly called the snake, moved over to a corner of the house, and we continued working in the garden. Once in a while we'd peek to see if she had moved on. But after 2 days she hadn't moved from the spot and I felt bad that it looked like we had disturbed and confused her.

my other concern was her location. If she decided to make that her home, there was good chance that my riding mower could kill her during a pass.

There was some debate between my wife and I as to whether I should disturb her or not, but I figured let's bring her in, see if she's healthy and decide what to do from there.

That's where you guys got involved!

And...that's when I found out she was a she and gravid. Now I know a new term!

I reality, could I have put her in a box, driven her a few miles down the road to some woods and set her free? Sure, and it's a reasonable thing to do. Is/was there selfish motive to keep her? You bet. Do I think she's safer and will possibly live longer being taken care of? Without a doubt, yes. These things all went through my head debating what to do with Gary.

Now, the flipside of all this is I am a breeder, of exotic birds. And quite frankly, they are more work than a snake. Not better or worse, but different. I've raised many a clutch, both hand feeding and raising. Lots of hands on time. And baby birds don't eat on their own. You have to prepare formula, at just the right temp, and feed each, one by one with a syringe. Exotics are the same in one aspect, they are wild even when they are CB. Human hand raising helps to keep them tame and familiar with us humans. Put two hand raised exotic birds together, and they revert to being wild. Birds will always bond stronger to birds than humans. I digress tho...

So I've taken on the responsibility of keeping a WC snake. I've really left her alone in the past month not wanting to stress her too much. I'll work on handling after she has her brood. For now, I make sure her cage is clean and dry. And I keep her fed and watered.

Is this a good or bad thing? Honestly, I don't know. I've grown attached to her, and I'm sure she was even more confused sitting in an aquarium. But I've tried to make it as natural for her as I can.

If at some point I feel like I am doing more harm than good to her, then I'll let go back to the wild.

It's a good debate. Certainly when you toss in the non-domesticated aspect to it. Are we doing good? Dunno at this point.

Greg

Oh! And when she does give birth, I will offer them to folks here, keep a couple and the remaining will be released. So there's a bit of conservation there too.

[Gijs & Sabine]

You've got a very good point here, James!!
When I think about it I must admit I'm also against it in general. But I do understand everybody who got tempted to take a gravid home. It's great to take care of these little creatures

It's difficult...... I think most people from the forum do take good care of their garters, but I'm also sure there are people who don't and only see $$ like Sjoerd mentioned.
So for the garters it's probably the best if everybody leave them allone. Just thinking of the stress they got into in their condition............

[Zephyr]

I would also like to note that the majority of the snakes that people are collecting when they are gravid seem to be eastern garters, no doubt the most common on this side of the country. Also, seeing as there are laws and whatnot forbidding the sale of the species and etc, it's a lot harder for people to get CB within their states. Fortunately the sale thing isn't the case in Michigan, but then again the taste for garters isn't as widely shared.

[dashnu]

I think I agree, taking in gravid females is not in good practice. I have even said in the past finding a gravid female would be nice but after thinking about it maybe not.. I would feel very bad if I took in a gravid female and caused issue with the young or any issues for that matter.

I plan to find a male for my non-gravid female and try to breed next year. One of the things that is really concerning to me is my local population. I want to increase my local population of snakes not decrease it. So that being said what about releasing newborns into the wild after being CB? Do the mothers stay with the snakes in the wild after birth? Part of me want to give back and this would make me feel as if I was doing so. Also going through this experience with my daughters would be an invaluable for us I think.