Taxonomic changes: T. elegans

[Stefan-A]

So, it's been bothering me for a while now. Apparently the taxonomy of Thamnophis elegans has changed a bit and now only two subspecies remain recognized; T. elegans elegans and T. elegans vagrans.

According to:
CNAH

Taxonomic Comments:

• Hammerson (1999 Amphibians and Reptiles in Colorado. Second Edition. University Press of Colorado, Niwot. xxvi + 484 pp.) presented substantial evidence that the race, Thamnophis elegans arizonae Tanner & Lowe 1989, did not deserve recognition.

• Hammerson (1999 Amphibians and Reptiles in Colorado. Second Edition. University Press of Colorado, Niwot. xxvi + 484 pp.) presented substantial evidence that the race, Thamnophis elegans vascotanneri Tanner & Lowe 1989, did not deserve recognition.

• Bronikowski and Arnold (2001 Copeia 2001(2): 508-513), using DNA data, concluded that recognition of the race, Thamnophis elegans terrestris Fox 1951, was unsupported.

So what subspecies do the respective populations belong to now? I'm especially interested in what happened to T. elegans terrestris.

[adamanteus]

I'm especially interested in what happened to T. elegans terrestris.

So am I.

[GarterGuy]

Yeh I saw awhile ago, that they were going to do away with terrestris, but they haven't said now what subspecies it is. Guess it'll just end up being a erthyristic vagrans or something????

[Loren]

Yeh I saw awhile ago, that they were going to do away with terrestris, but they haven't said now what subspecies it is. Guess it'll just end up being a erthyristic vagrans or something????

I didnt know any of this. I would suppose that t.e. terrestris(coast) garters would be considered t. e. elegans (mountain garter), rather than t.e. vagrans(wandering), as the range of vagrans and t.e. terrestris dont touch. So maybe a erythristic, or red phase, elegans??

Kind of depends which book or website you go by, I guess. I still use the 2003 peterson field guide(Stebbins) as my main authority, along with Californiaherps.com. Call me outdated, but its easier than trying to keep up with what they try to change from week to week just so somebody can have his name on a published report.

[GarterGuy]

Call me outdated, but its easier than trying to keep up with what they try to change from week to week just so somebody can have his name on a published report.

Just wait 'til they break up sirtalis! I have a feeling it's going to happen. We'll end up with more species and less subspecies.

[Stefan-A]

Just wait 'til they break up sirtalis! I have a feeling it's going to happen. We'll end up with more species and less subspecies.

Is it something that somebody is working towards?

[KITKAT]

Just wait 'til they break up sirtalis! I have a feeling it's going to happen. We'll end up with more species and less subspecies.

That will be bad for me.

Ohio law requires a license and really anal book-keeping if you keep sirtalis, but does not apply this to the non-native subspecies. So if sirtalis subspecies are rolled back into the species, I will have to pay about $50 a year, keep the stupid hand-written accounting of each snake and where it went, and have a visit every once in awhile from the "nice wildlife officer" who will stand there in my house and moan about how I am endangering garter species everywhere because I keep a handful of CBB.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Just wait 'til they break up sirtalis! I have a feeling it's going to happen. We'll end up with more species and less subspecies.

Perhaps, but the other possibility (which relates to the terrestris departure) is that there may be less subspecies and only one species (with unsupported races)!

Some geneticists are speciating (breaking up subspecies into individual species statuses) garters, while others counter with a result that aims to lump all subspecies into one species. Who's right? If you want to know , become a genetecist! 'Tis the only way to solve this. Unfortunately there are too many self-righteous PhD's out there.

[Stefan-A]

To tell the truth, that's pretty much what they look like. Except for some of the red terrestris that look more like a red morph of elegans elegans.

[ssssnakeluvr]

interesting......I have always wondered about vascotanneri....hadn't been able to get any info on the difference between them and vagrans. we have them here in Utah and was hoping to catch some this summer. Terrestris resembles vagrans, but I didn't think it was that close....