Sudden onset neurological problem

[hissies]

So my snake seems to have developed a neurological problem over the past few days. Sunday night I went to pick him up in order to clean his cage, which he responded to by squirming a bit (his usual reaction when I do that) but then suddenly degraded into a spiraling motion with his mouth open. I gently set him back down, where he continued to convulse and twitch for a moment. He righted himself not long after, and began acting normally again. Tongue flicking and so on, as he had before I'd moved him. I was able to clean out the cage later that night. Yesterday, he had two more seizures in the afternoon and evening, hours apart. I was alerted to these by hearing him thunk against the side of the enclosure. Each lasted several seconds. I'd been keeping an eye on him intermittently throughout the day, during which he appeared to be acting relatively normal- moving around the enclosure (casually), flicking his tongue every so often when I'd check in. This morning I found him laying belly-up. Initially I thought he had died, but I went to pick him up and he turned over, still alive and breathing, but lethargic. He's moved and slithered around my hands, but slowly and somewhat erratically (I'm wondering if he's having trouble consistently holding himself upright.) He isn't flicking his tongue. I keep putting his face near the water dish to encourage him to drink, though I haven't seen him do so today.

I got him from a friend in mid-late December, and have had him about a month and a half. He's an Eastern garter. I know that my friend kept him for a couple months before giving him to me, where he was fed pet store feeder minnows. All I know prior to that is that she got him from someone she knows, who got him from "some guy." I don't know his age, whether he was WC, or anything about his history.
He has never, to my knowledge, been fed tilapia or human-grade packaged fish. In my care he's been eating SF Bay brand silversides, and I had planned to start including earthworms and fresh fish fillet as well (though haven't yet.) He's been active, curious, eating like a champ since I got him, defecating and producing urates regularly, and had a perfect shed for me about two weeks ago. He's currently living alone. I did try to feed him last night, as it'd been 5-6 days since his last meal, and he hasn't touched it. Nothing's seemed off about him until two days ago.
He's currently on paper towel bedding (was on aspen when my friend had him) with cardboard hides and a glass water dish.
Ambient temperature ranges from 72-80 degrees, slightly cooler at night.

I've read through a bunch of seizure threads on here, and I don't know what could be causing this. A parasite or thiaminase problem is the only thing I can think of. I've never given him a vitamin supplement. I've only cleaned the enclosure with Dawn dish soap and water, making sure it's fully rinsed and dried before placing him back in it. He's eaten from the same batch/package of silversides the whole time. Nothing has changed in his environment that I'm aware of. Would a vet visit help anything? Would parasite treatment help, or is it too late if that's the case? Is there anything I can do?

[guidofatherof5]

I would suggest a Vet. visit.
From the evidence you've presented I would say thiaminase would be my first suspect. Not knowing the full history on the snake makes it difficult but also sheds a little light on what might be happening. I'm guessing the guy before the guy you got it from was feeding minnows also.
I think the only thing you can do at this time is switch to a more balanced diet and add in some supp.
I don't mean to be a downer but usually when a snake reaches this point because of thiaminase it is too late to do anything. I hope that isn't the case here.
Please keep us posted on this situation.

[hissies]

I don't mean to be a downer but usually when a snake reaches this point because of thiaminase it is too late to do anything. I hope that isn't the case here.

Unfortunately, I was thinking the same thing.

His last shed measured 19 in. and he weighs 21g. I've been under the impression that he's a younger snake and I feel like he may have grown a bit since I received him, but that's speculation.

What might I expect a vet to do for him? I'm not doubting at all that a visit is the best idea, I just have no previous experience with reptiles and haven't come across much of anything about actually treating this problem. I like to walk in with at least an idea of what can be done, if treatment is an option. Medication? Injections? Either way, I will see how much my vet knows about snakes, and if they don't I know of at least one more in town that I've seen on recommended herp vet lists.

Thank you for the prompt responses. I'll be sure to keep you updated on what happens.

edit: d_virginiana, you posted at the same time I was writing this response! I've been using plain tap water. It's treated and not from a well, but I haven't put anything extra in it, like those reptile water treatment drops. (I did some research on that earlier on, and was under the impression it was okay not to use them.)

[d_virginiana]

Unfortunately, I was thinking the same thing.

His last shed measured 19 in. and he weighs 21g. I've been under the impression that he's a younger snake and I feel like he may have grown a bit since I received him, but that's speculation.

What might I expect a vet to do for him? I'm not doubting at all that a visit is the best idea, I just have no previous experience with reptiles and haven't come across much of anything about actually treating this problem. I like to walk in with at least an idea of what can be done, if treatment is an option. Medication? Injections? Either way, I will see how much my vet knows about snakes, and if they don't I know of at least one more in town that I've seen on recommended herp vet lists.

Thank you for the prompt responses. I'll be sure to keep you updated on what happens.

edit: d_virginiana, you posted at the same time I was writing this response! I've been using plain tap water. It's treated and not from a well, but I haven't put anything extra in it, like those reptile water treatment drops. (I did some research on that earlier on, and was under the impression it was okay not to use them.)

19 inches sounds like he could be either a fully grown or nearly full grown eastern male (they max out at about 24 inches for males).

The only thing I've heard of a vet can do for this is the vitamin injection. I have no personal experience with this, and may be getting the procedure confused with something else, so hopefully another member can clarify what I'm thinking about here...
I'd say definitely don't go to a vet without knowing exactly what you want from them. In cases like this you will end up doing a lot of expensive tests and/or procedures that end up not helping at all. Not necessarily the vet's fault, but if they don't know much about reptiles then their diagnostics are pretty horrible for anything that isn't super obvious (like an injury or infection).

Okay, to start off with, I don't think the water is the problem here at all now. Only mentioned the well water because some can have crazy metal content that has been known to cause seizures in frogs.
By 'treated' do you mean like... city water has been treated with chlorine and stuff? This is toxic to reptiles (snakes are pretty hardy so I doubt a month of that would cause seizures in a healthy snake so don't beat yourself up about that). In the future and for any other reptiles you might have, you need to treat it. 'Prime' is probably the best product around. You can find it in the aquarium aisle, and one bottle goes a LONG way. Just a couple drops per gallon, and it's good to go.

[Stefan-A]

It could be a consequence of mistakes made by previous owners.

My recommendation is, as usual, vet or euthanasia. I've heard that some have treated thiamin deficiency successfully themselves, but I fear that it may be too late for that.

[chris-uk]

It sounds like thiaminase could be the culprit if he was fed feeder minnows (I believe these are on the unsafe fish list) before you got him. Thiaminase deficiency is a gradual thing, so feeding a correct diet for the last month or so may not have been enough.

I know you don't know how old her is, but roughly how large is he? Approximate length and weight will tell us whether you have a young snake or an older one.

Many of the things you mention ring alarm bells and I'd say that the prognosis isn't looking good. However, if you can take him to a vet who knows about snakes then that would be my advice, and I wouldn't wait too long to do it. That you found him belly up and he's not flicking his tongue are signs that he needs urgent veterinary care if he's to make a recovery.

[d_virginiana]

Haven't I heard of people going to the vet to get vitamin injections for cases like this? I'm not sure what they are called, but it seems like the sort of thing you could ask for from a non-herp vet and still get. Does seem like something you'd have to ask for though since a vet with no reptile experience probably wouldn't know about it.
Sorry about this Whatever the culprit (likely thiaminase) the only options are vet, feeding the correct diet and hoping it doesn't get worse (unlikely to work), or euthanasia.

One more thing... What kind of water are you using? I figure you're treating it if you're using tap water, but sometimes people do not treat well water or buy distilled (rare but I've heard of people doing it). Well water can contain high heavy metal content depending on location, and distilled can sometimes disrupt internal osmotic functions (unlikely in snakes, but still worth asking about). Either of these things could potentially cause seizures.
Most likely is still thiaminase though.

[ConcinusMan]

Why is everyone always so quick to blame thiaminase? The behavior described is what any snake in pain or severe discomfort does. Doesn't sound like a neurological problem at all. Swallowing a fish bone that punctures the intestine, trying to throw up something that is stuck, an infection or blockage, or any other cause of internal pain would cause a snake to act like that. Unfortunately symptoms like this sometimes don't show up until the snake is already "on his way out"

Thiamine deficiency doesn't just suddenly show up one day in a severe way like this.

"suddenly degraded into a spiraling motion with his mouth open". That doesn't sound like a seizure or neurological issue at all. Sounds more like a reaction to severe pain or discomfort.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I agree with Richard. Honestly there are a zillion issues that can cause this behavior. I think the thiaminase thing is a card that is way overplayed here. Not that it shouldn't be a valid concern... But to jump to that is just as bad as all of the python people that see a snake doing this and automatically want to blame IBD. Many of the Europeans (especially ones that either don't post here or left long ago) feed smelt on a regular basis. Not to mention the countless numbers of customers I had that fed goldfish and had garter and ribbon snakes that were going on 8 and 10 years old. Some of my local populations live on catfish, especially the nerodia down the street. It is no wonder customers would look at me as if I am crazy when I would recommend switching foods when they had been feeding a thiaminase laden fish for the Snake's entire life. I used to be really adamant about it and still will not offer goldfish, but I think that this forum as a whole needs to start taking other issues into account a little more.

[Stefan-A]

I think that this forum as a whole needs to start taking other issues into account a little more.

Neither this forum nor any other can remote diagnose. It doesn't matter what issues are taken into account.



ps. there are differences between smelts, there are differences between f/t and live and diets in the wild are normally varied, but that's a separate discussion.