In Breeding

[CrazyHedgehog]

Just a question on the thoughts of in-breeding.
I have read several discussions on breeding between species, and realise that this just creates muddy snakes that no-one wants watering down the gene pool. OK, got that, have always agreed with this, they don't have the exciting mixing options like corn or king snakes.

But what about in breeding between the same species?
With so few garter keepers in the UK, many (if not all) the snakes we buy are likely to be from the same original gene pool, what if siblings end up as the same parents? is this as bad?

With mice, in-breeding is encouraged to some degree to strengthen traits and lines??
Big no no with garters, or just not the strongest option?

(do not worry, I am not planning on in-breeding, I have a year or so before I need to split up) but just wondered if it was as big a 'no-no' as mixing species/subspecies? I can carefully split my San franciscos up, try and get different partners for them etc, but in reality they are likely to be first cousins at least? the gene pool for these in the UK must be tiny?

[gregmonsta]

Your san frans are going to be a lot more closely related than that. The only viable option for these is to source them from as far afield as possible. The entire genepool in Europe was started with very few individuals -
San Francisco Garter Snake : Thamnophis.com
Thamnophis.com: Article Site .19.
Thamnophis.com: Article Site .1.

At any rate - I would never sell 1.1 from a SanFran litter. I would sell 1.1 only if I had 2 pairs of adults from as many different sources as possible.

As far as the rest goes it depends on breeders supplying the right information and the buyers making their choice.
Personally I would not wish to take a bloodline beyond F3. I will (and have) advertise if I'm offering F1 and it's up to the buyer to decide if it is good enough for them. If I was selling F2 I would start to encourage the buyer sourcing new blood to compliment. If I was selling F3 I would refuse to sell 1.1 outright.

[guidofatherof5]

Good post Greg. Very well put.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Thanks, that makes sense, just worrying trying to try and get new blood lines for San Frans, in reality then the captive bred ones are on a timeline of thier own,
I bought some in Doncaster, tiny worms though and needing assisted feeding! won't be breeding for a couple of years...and have one from Hamm a few years ago, hoping to get a few more this year to mix them up..

But thankyou for the clear response Greg.

[Stefan-A]

With mice, in-breeding is encouraged to some degree to strengthen traits and lines??

In that case we are talking about selective breeding to maintain and strengthen certain properties that are largely irrelevant to the animal (coloration, fur type, even personality to some extent).

[Steveo]

I don't know how herp breeders do it, but in a past life I bred show fish and always outcrossed every third generation. The San Frans are a special case in that getting fresh, wild blood is impossible. The breeder should have an idea about who has some distantly-related lines... I would hope communication is pretty tight in that group.

[chris-uk]

I don't know how herp breeders do it, but in a past life I bred show fish and always outcrossed every third generation. The San Frans are a special case in that getting fresh, wild blood is impossible. The breeder should have an idea about who has some distantly-related lines... I would hope communication is pretty tight in that group.

I'm not convinced that communication is good enough that most breeders could confidently say "my lines are unrelated to Bob's lines for at least x generations". Unfortunately it would seem that even if the breeders provide paperwork with their babies, the paperwork tells you who the parents are but if you want to know more than that you'd need the breeder to go looking up more information in their records.
It is for that reason that my male San Francisco Garter will probably never breed. I got the San Fran because it was the first species both me and the wife said we wanted after we got the checkered girls, so when the opportunity arose I decided to buy one. However, after researching more about the European San Fran lines I'd quickly decided that I'd rather breed infernalis than tetrataenia, so I'm happy just to keep a tetrataenia for the term of its natural life and not even consider breeding it.

[gregmonsta]

The breeder should have an idea about who has some distantly-related lines... I would hope communication is pretty tight in that group.

You would think so, there's still the element of (especially in Britain) of people going: "Ooooh, pretty!" and buying and breeding regardless of seller advice.

A lot of the problems with tetrataenia - shorter life-spans, failure to thrive, low fertility, low litter sizes, tendency towards small offspring, tumors, etc, come from early breeding at the zoos and with early hobbyists. This started the chain and a lot of these were at F? by the time they reached hobbyists.
I do want to keep and breed them some day. My plan is to source animals from each Britain, Holland, Germany and Switzerland or Austria. I would keep two strict bloodlines as a minimum. The EGSA has taken steps towards keeping studbooks and registers of known breeders. Work on a family tree was also established and published in one of the EGSA's quarterly publication.

Even when it comes to our other snakes - how do we know? Checkereds are the 'bread and butter'/'bulletproof' garter in Britain. We've already seen how breeding albinos can throw up neurological issues, failure to thrive, etc, possibly due to the propensity to offer 1.1 for generation after generation. Many new keepers will simply not be aware of these things and it's on a par with people breeding different species/sub-species together without knowing any better.

Lets face it - not all keepers are enthusiasts, and - even I have asked questions like whether I could cross-breed when I joined the forum, for eg.

As breeders we need to look at bringing fresh bloodlines into our collections as often as possible as well as exchanges of litters to allow the offering of unrelated animals where possible (i.e. we both have F1/2/3 litters, I'll swap my males with yours and we can offer unrelated offspring to our fellow hobbyists). The advice we give to buyers is also important (but it can still be ignored/forgotten).

But, I really think the most important thing is for the 'guys at the top', i.e. the 'bigger' breeders in each market to network. Considering I've been trying to get things moving in Scotland for a while now, you all know my work ethic, so to speak. To newcomers and fellow keepers alike it's part of my responsibility to inform, refer to other source/breeders where possible and promote good practice (hence most shops hating my guts :P ), and that's how it should be across the board.

[chris-uk]

Just another thought...
How many people realise that if a breeder has a pair that they bred last year, and again this year, a female from last year mating with a male from this year is genetically the same as mating siblings together? They don't have to be from the same litter.

Now an example of a different species...
I know that my Cuitzeos are an F1 and F2, and come from a breeder in Europe. I also know that every Cuitzeo in Europe will have come from a single source (albeit one that has multiple wild caught snakes and breeds to produce genetic diversity). If in 20 years time someone decides that they need to get new blood in, and looks to the US to bring in some new blood, there's a good chance that the snakes from the US would originate from the same European breeder because some of his snakes have found there way to the US.
I guess the point of this is, that over time the early records that would definitively show the bloodlines are likely to be lost, and it's in the fourth, fifth, sixth generation that the records would become most important. What we do today can and will impact on the hobby for decades.

Of my 13 snakes -
6 - I know who the breeder is, how to contact them, and where the parents and some of the offspring of those parents are.
2 - I know who the breeder is, how to contact them, but I'm not sure whether the parents are still with the same breeder (but a quick email would sort that out) or who has related offspring.
1 - Is wild caught.
1 - Is shop bought, I know it was imported from the US but nothing else.
1 - I know who bred them (unfortunately he can't be contacted), and where the parents are, but neither myself or the current keeper of the parents know much about the parents.
2 - I have absolutely no idea about their past because the keeper I got them from rescued them from a Gumtree ad.
In an ideal world, every snake we keep would fit into the first three categories above. I'd imagine the majority of keepers have a lot of snakes that fall outside my first three categories.

[ssssnakeluvr]

some inbreeding is required to bring out the various morphs... good idea not to go past f3....