Smelly red goop piles on substrate

[cnphilips]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Sorry this is long, there's a lot on my mind![/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]In December of last year I drove 4 hours to adopt two captive bred (so told) garter snakes I found on petfinder. I'm a first time snake owner, but I am a wildlife rehbabber by profession. I work with reptile medications and injuries a lot (dog attacks, hit by car, stuck in trash, glue traps) but not with breeding or long term husbandry. These guys have doubled in size (now at 45 grams). They saw our local reptile vet in May, the same one we use at the wilifelife hospital.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]I generally feed nightcrawlers every weekend. Friday 10/30 I fed petsmart minnows, they each ate 6, then a worm and a half. We've been swapping fish in once a month since June. I [/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]had asked my vet about supplmenting calcium, since we were only feeding worms and he said "feed live fish." [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Thursday 11/5 they were out of the hideys and staring us down, which is usually their reminder that its time to eat again. We didn't have the worms until Sunday 11/8 so I expected the extra days to have made them even more hungry. But they each only ate 1 full worm, it's usually about 3, so that's not right. The next morning there were some reddish almost purple hardened goos on the carefresh.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]I decided to move forward with a low dose of panacur (50mg/kg) in an earthworm. I tried last night and got one of them, Stripes, to go for the medicated worm chunk, he/she also ate 2 more worms. Blackie did not eat, ignored the moving worm.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]More fresh,red, wet, incredibly smelly blobs appeared after the handling for feeding. [/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]The lack of interest from Blackie alarms me the most. I checked vents and both were a bit crusty, dirty, also something I don't like. Stripes looked to have a tiny amount of the red goo, and was near one of the fresh piles. I soaked both of them.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Is this a run to the vet situation? Is it a parsite symptom or am I jumping to conclusions? Is this a mating/ breeding symptom? Blackie's a girl, Stripes is cryptic, could be male. Anyone seen this before? Almost certain it's from the vent and not regurge but I could be wrong.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]I'm feeling unhappy with thier current vet the more I read on this forum about fish dangers. We've had other problems with him at the hospital including bad surgeries, and he's difficult to get a hold of, but he is a reptile specialist, just maybe not a good one. So new dog/cat vet with reptile experience or not great reptile vet? [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Attached is all the red blobs from the last three days. No new ones this morning. Both are alert. Variously on heat, on cool side.

Thank you for your time!
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[BLUESIRTALIS]

See if you can get some better pics of the globs and maybe even a pic of the snakes. The pic you posted looks like blood drops and very well could be parasites (live fish are full of parasites). In most cases the parasites that cause fecal bleeding can't be treated with panacur and has to be treated with flagyl.

[guidofatherof5]

As stated better photos would be helpful. Can you get a fecal float done to verify the parasites?

[cnphilips]

I'm still working on getting a sample I can test, or a picture before its dry. I soaked them, and both left red and urate in the water. Stripes had a proper poo mixed in. So it's a little clearer that its both of them, and its definitely coming from the bowels so to say.

When the vet said fish I was surprised. I even said that everything I had read evrywhere that it would have parasites. He said "then you'll treat them for parasites if they get them" and shurgged. NOT HELPFUL. I took his lack of worry, or lack of further information as a green light, which was a mistake. I've de-wormed lots of things, but not snakes. I could've handled true worms, but this bleeding from the instetines is not an acceptable risk and wish I had better informed myself.

I'm also thinking flagyl, I'm not sure about the correct dose ( one book 25mg/kg, the other 250mg/kg). trying to attached photo of what was in water.
image.jpgimage.jpg

[joeysgreen]

I am not a fan of "shot gun" medicating. Do not give deworming medications without cause. Have a fecal done. Have an exam done. Often times we don't jump to deworming because the animal needs other corrective measures attended to first. Deworming medications are often rather safe, but given to the wrong patient, at the wrong time, or a dose inappropriate for the situation can all cause serious damage or death.

As per the live fish; it's a matter of preference. I agree that feeding live fish is nutritionally beneficial, but also mentally stimulating. Having regular fecals and/or deworming just as you do with your dog or cat can be a means of managing this "unsterile" addition to the dinner table. It is up to the owner to decide which they prefer, just as they would decide to keep the snake in an empty Rubbermaid with paper towel, or a naturalistic vivarium. And just like with any other food source, if it's captive bred in proper conditions, the chance of parasitism is pretty low.

As an aside, is this vet a true reptile expert (as in he's a boarded specialist)? Just curious. From what you have said, there is nothing that he did or say that was wrong IMO; yet client communication might not be a strong point for him.

Ian

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think flagyl requires a prescription from a vet anyway.

I am not a fan of "shot gun" medicating. Do not give deworming medications without cause. Have a fecal done. Have an exam done. Often times we don't jump to deworming because the animal needs other corrective measures attended to first. Deworming medications are often rather safe, but given to the wrong patient, at the wrong time, or a dose inappropriate for the situation can all cause serious damage or death.

As per the live fish; it's a matter of preference. I agree that feeding live fish is nutritionally beneficial, but also mentally stimulating. Having regular fecals and/or deworming just as you do with your dog or cat can be a means of managing this "unsterile" addition to the dinner table. It is up to the owner to decide which they prefer, just as they would decide to keep the snake in an empty Rubbermaid with paper towel, or a naturalistic vivarium. And just like with any other food source, if it's captive bred in proper conditions, the chance of parasitism is pretty low.

As an aside, is this vet a true reptile expert (as in he's a boarded specialist)? Just curious. From what you have said, there is nothing that he did or say that was wrong IMO; yet client communication might not be a strong point for him.

Ian

[guidofatherof5]

Be sure to separate the snakes until this situation of under control.

[guidofatherof5]

Just got this message from Steve Schmidt. Thanks Steve.

Here is a good article on flagyl (metronidazole) usage and dosage. Not that I'm recommending that cnphilips use it for this purpose(smelly red goop piles etc.), but at least it is good info. Please include this disclaimer if you post it.

Protozoan Parasites Treatment: Metronidazole (Flagyl)

[Albert Clark]

Sorry to hear of the dilemma. One other thing to consider is the possibility of the fish discoloring the feces, urine, and urates. I know you said minnow and they have a pinkish coloration to them. Did you happen to give them goldfish? They can definitely discolor the snakes output as well. I do agree with Shawn that it seems to be blood mixed in as well. Bloody, foul smelling feces is a serious condition in snakes and does lend towards parasites. Fecal float is the way to go and the reptile vet as well. I believe it may be cryptosporidium that is the foul smelling , bloody condition but in any case better safe than sorry. Thanks for the descriptive story and hope all the replies lead you in the right direction. Welcome to garter snake country.

[joeysgreen]

I think flagyl requires a prescription from a vet anyway.

It technically is a prescription drug, but I am always amazed how easy it is to get this and much more dangerous drugs at pet stores (fish) and feedlot (livestock) stores. Not to mention the internet. I can't tell you how many cases we get with people having misused drug after drug and the assortment of pathogens are now resistant to everything under the sun and we can't do much more than search for rare drugs only available in other countries.