Let's vent:What really ticks you off about the pet trade!

[Bill]

I am really ticked off about how we ,the micro breeders,the back bone off the industry,get treated. I mean first off you buy a pair of reptiles from the local pet shop for say $50.00 each. You breed them raise the young bring them back to the shop and they offer you $5.00. Ok it's happened to us all but here's my point. They base this on the price they pay for some crappy wild caught stuff that came in to the whole saler in a 55 gallon drum marked garter snakes X 1000. I have seenthis with my own eyes. I was at my whole salers once and looked in the snake room and here is a 100 lot of eastern garters,yeh I think this will hit home,stuffed into a 10 gallon tank with 3 inchs of water in it and a glass top with a rock on top. Needless to say they were all wiggleing like made to try and stay on top and not drown. So you mean to tell me that the animals that you raised in a small batch and hand cared for one at a time are worth the same as one of those stressed out, prasite ridden,half dead animals. I DON"T THINK SO!!! But do you know why they do this and get away with it. Because we bought the stuff in the first place. We need to stop buying this crap and start to insist on captive bred animals. Now I'm not saying don't ever buy wild caught. We alway's need new blood and sometimes that's your only option but we can buy from importers that take the time to deworm and clean up the stock before they ship it out. You would not knowingly buy a puppy from a puppy mill would you? Then why is it that we buy are reptiles this way! Or maybe I could be worng. LET'S VENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[adamanteus]

I'll be perfectly honest, Bill.... my first thought is 'Why are you trying to sell back to these people'?

[adamanteus]

You're right.... the way these 'cheap' animals are housed is atrocious..... so let's not shop there. I have seen similar stuff, and it makes my blood boil! All we can really do is withdraw our custom, and encourage others to do the same.

[Stefan-A]

Personally, I can't say that I have experienced anything like that. At least not that I can remember. But I sure as hell wouldn't buy anything from or sell anything to a store that threats their animals that way.

[sschind]

I'm going to try to be civil here so please don't be offended by what I have to say. You've brought up several points and I will try to address them one at a time with comments.

First off, I breed reptiles. A few leopard geckos here and a few mountain kingsnakes there. That is what I am assuming you mean by micro breeders. Well, I hate to burst your bubble but we are a far cry from the "backbone of the industry" the big wholesalers sell more in a day than you or I do in a year. We could all go away tomorrow and the reptile trade probably wouldn't even notice.

Second, I know its an abomination but pet stores are in business to make money. Besides breeding I also own a pet store and I can tell you what 90% of the people think is a fair markup would make anyone laugh. I can't tell you how many people come to me wanting to sell their animals at prices that might as well be retail. They think that because I sell bearded dragons for $50.00 I should be falling all over myself to pay them $40.00 for one, or that I should be jumping for joy that they are willing to sell me a leopard gecko for $25.00 because I can sell it for $30.00 and make myself $5.00 in the deal. OK, that's opposite ends of the spectrum but I just brought up my examples to counterpoint yours.

Third, You buy adult animals from me and in a year they are breeding and you are producing offspring and you come to me offering these babies. Do you know how many people want babies, not that many. Most people want something a little bigger People come to me with 2 week old bearded dragons wanting me to pay $40.00 and don't understand when I tell them that by the time they are 2 months old and I can sell them I will have more than $10.00 into them and I will be losing money. Speaking of garter snakes, I have only dealt with a couple of babies but I'd bet it would take me 6 months to get one big enough to feel comfortable selling.

Fourth, Yes, you are right, the conditions in many wholesale facilities is atrocious. I've walked into a few that literally took my breath away. The stench of dead animals was appalling. Believe it or not, I never went back to these places. But, unfortunately many of my competitors either don't realize the situation or do not care. They are happy to pay cheap prices for WC crap just so they can turn around and sell it cheaply to their customers. I won't do that but that is the reason why I can't pay as much as you would like for your animals. They buy a wc piece of crap for $5.00 and sell it for $20.00 You want me to pay $15.00 so I have to sell it for $40.00. Well, I can tell you that 75% of the customers could not care less about where the animal came from. All they see is that I am $20.00 higher than the guy down the road (or the guy at the swap) and they think I am trying to rip them off.

Fifth, If you think it is so easy to get $50.00 for your reptiles why aren't you trying to sell them to the public yourself. Is it because you don't have the time? Well, we do, we have regular store hours and we are here even when we don't want to be. I Think that deserves some sort of reward. Is it because you don't want 20 strangers coming over to your house? Well, we have strangers coming in all the time. Some of them don't think twice about stealing whatever they can get away with. I think putting up with that deserves some sort of reward. Is it because you want to sell everything all at once and be done with it? Well, that is a good thing. For you. Now we have 20 baby snakes that it might take us a year to sell. If we can get them cheaply enough we might even make some money on them.

Sixth, who is this "we" you are referring to when you say "We need to stop buying this crap and start to insist on captive bred animals." because you know what? I agree with you 1000% I only sell CBB animals in my store with the exception of a few things that I may have took in from a customer who tired of them or some animals that I had originally purchased for myself but decided to go in another direction (most of these I try to trade off to other hobbyists however) I would absolutely love for no one to ever buy a wc reptile again. That would put many of my competitors out of business and it would open the door for me. So please, do everything in your power to convince people that a $50.00 CBB bearded dragon is a much better purchase than a $30.00 wc emerald swift. I would thank you and I am sure if he could the almost certainly headed for a quick death emerald swift would thank you.

Seventh, since this is a garter snake forum I am assuming you have an interest in garter snakes. Well, another news flash, there are not that many of us. Most people do not have the patience to deal with a garter snake. Most are rather flighty, they have a tendency to musk, and babies can be a real pain in the...to feed. Why buy something like that when there are so many other choices out there. Besides if they wanted a garter snake chances are they could catch their own.

OK, I've gone on enough. As a fellow breeder I can see your point but hopefully I have made mine a little clearer. The one thing I would hope that you take from all of this is what adamanteus said, "why are you trying to sell back to these people" If they are truly as bad as you claim it should come as no surprise that they act the way they do. I do not know what to tell you to do with your babies. If you lived near me I would say come in and we could talk. I might not be able to offer you what you think your babies are worth but hopefully I could get you to see where I am coming from. I know that you may not be like those people I am referring to in my examples, and you may (or you may not) be saying "you don't sound like the pet store owners I am talking about either" and so we are all well and good about this. I honestly meant nothing I said as an offense and I sincerely hope that you were not offended by anything I did say. I long for the day when I can get out of the retail business and make a living just selling my snakes at shows etc. But until that day comes, if it ever does, I am here doing what I know how to do. We pet store owners may rank right up there with used car salesmen and lawyers when it comes to garnering respect but I would just caution you not to paint us all with the same brush.

[GartersRock]

Seventh, since this is a garter snake forum I am assuming you have an interest in garter snakes. Well, another news flash, there are not that many of us. Most people do not have the patience to deal with a garter snake. Most are rather flighty, they have a tendency to musk, and babies can be a real pain in the...to feed. Why buy something like that when there are so many other choices out there. Besides if they wanted a garter snake chances are they could catch their own.

Cool thread!!
I agree with this in general but I disagree with a few of the statements...
This is how the general public views garters, yeah. But I had to say that:

1. Most of my garters are not flighty and many where even wild caught adults. Certainly no more flighty then your average king, corn or milk!

2. NONE of my garters musk. I have dozens...

3. Baby kings, corns, milks and balls can be even more of a pain in the **** to feed. If not sometimes moreso then garters...

4. Try finding the right garter, at the right time, right when you want it.
And then try and find the species you want that isn't local.
And then try finding some morphs. Honestly. You can find kings, corns and milks in the wild too! Most people who are looking for a pet aren't going to know where to look when they want one.
And if you want a puget, flame or whatever well... Good luck!

But yeah. That would be how the general public would see it. So I completely understand where you are coming from. But you failed to mention that these are just "myths".

Anyways! Back on topic!

[sschind]

Cool thread!!
I agree with this in general but I disagree with a few of the statements...
This is how the general public views garters, yeah. But I had to say that:

1. Most of my garters are not flighty and many where even wild caught adults. Certainly no more flighty then your average king, corn or milk!

2. NONE of my garters musk. I have dozens...

3. Baby kings, corns, milks and balls can be even more of a pain in the **** to feed. If not sometimes moreso then garters...

4. Try finding the right garter, at the right time, right when you want it.
And then try and find the species you want that isn't local.
And then try finding some morphs. Honestly. You can find kings, corns and milks in the wild too! Most people who are looking for a pet aren't going to know where to look when they want one.
And if you want a puget, flame or whatever well... Good luck!

But yeah. That would be how the general public would see it. So I completely understand where you are coming from. But you failed to mention that these are just "myths".

Anyways! Back on topic!

It seems as though this thread has strayed a bit.

Amanda: you must be far more lucky with garters than I am. My puget sound babies (well more like young juveniles now) are all over the place and they both musk like crazy. My two baby melanistic easterns, same thing, as well as my yearling red sided male. My adult eastern Blacknecks are very mellow and the female has been from day one. The male was always a bit flighty but even as tiny babies they were not bad and they did not musk. My T.e.elegans are adults and while not as mellow as the female E. blackneck they are handleable without a great deal of trouble. It seems that as they age they mellow out. At least I hope so. As far as feeding, yes, they are easy to feed. If you want to deal with guppies or worms or something of that nature. Yes they may switch to mice but even if they switch readily it takes a quite a while for them to get big enough to take a pinky. Yes there are pinky parts but thats another messy step.

The problem with all of this as it relates to this thread is the pet industry. Most people who buy snakes as pets don't want squimy, squirty, psycho babies that require special steps to feed, and most pet stores do not want to or can't afford to buy babies and do all the work and take all the time to get them to a point where they are acceptable to most people. Hence, garters are considered second or third class citizens of the pet snake world. At least here in the US. What is the saying "familiarity breeds contempt" Attitudes may differ in Other countries but I am not in another country so I have to go by what I experience.


Bill: I think we agree more than we disagree. I will make one point though about the panther chameleons and my experience with them and keep in mind this experience is probably almost 2 years old. I know one breeder (yes just one breeder) who sells unsexed 2 month old panthers at local swaps for $150.00 to $175.00 She said if I wanted to buy 3 or more she would let me have them for $125.00. That would mean I would have to ask about $250.00. She sells sexable females for starting at $200 and males for $00.00 to $500.00 depending on things. Why would anyone buy a possible female from me for $250.00 when they could wait a few more months and get a male for only $50.00 more? My point is she thought she was doing me a great service offering them to me for $125.00. If she offered me sexed males then yeah, I could compete but not knowing what I would be getting made it not worth the chance. I know this does not take into consideration the WC issue but it does address the price issue. Then consider that my competitors are buying WC adults and selling them for $250.00-$300.00 and try to figure out how I am supposed to compete and still offer you what you consider a fair price for yours.

I'll weigh in on the Planet Earth thing simply by saying this (and others have said it as well) You are not trying to save the earth. You are trying to save the earth as it relates to your survival. While there is nothing wrong with that, it might behoove you to make the distinction. It doesn't make you sound like such a wacko.

By the way. the show sucked as it usually does for me. Its too early in the year and non of my babies are ready to go yet. Even the oldest ones have at most 4 meals in them. It doesn't pay for me to take my leopard geckos because anything I have pales in comparison to the ones Jeremy Letkey has and his prices are pretty good. I breed them for sale in the store mostly. I did pick up four decent sized, very orange dragons for a good price, a couple of CBB pictus geckos and I traded a few old used tanks for a couple of couple of dart frogs.

[Bill]

Well this is a wholesaler that supplies a large number of pet shops inthe north east. The bigger importers are even worse. It's not that I'm trying to sell back to these people myself. It's just the way it is. When ever someone bargain shoppes at a pet co or other chain as well as the small shops this is where this stuff comes from

[Bill]

Stefan-A chances are if you bought from a pet store thats exactly how your reptile was kept. After it came in by the box or barrel they slowly get broken down into smaller groups until the pet shops may only order 6 or 10. So you now see them in a 20 gallon tank on fresh paper or mulch marked up to the full retail price

[Stefan-A]

Stefan-A chances are if you bought from a pet store thats exactly how your reptile was kept. After it came in by the box or barrel they slowly get broken down into smaller groups until the pet shops may only order 6 or 10. So you now see them in a 20 gallon tank on fresh paper or mulch marked up to the full retail price

Nope, all have been captive bred, only the first two came from pet shops. Been to the importer, seen how they house them. The breeders seem to have been Swedish, very strict rules regarding the treatment of animals there. And we're not far behind in this country.

The first shop only had two, the second shop ordered a couple on my request.