Thiaminase & red worms

[suzoo]

First of all, what if the type of fish you feed your Garter isn't on the list? And what if you have fed a snake a type of fish that has thiaminase in the past, such as goldfish, because you didn't know any better, even if you don't feed them it now. Will your snake still get sick? And if a species of fish isn't on the list, how can you find out if it has thiaminase?
I know what blood worms are, and nightcrawlers. But what is a red worm? Is it the type of Earthworm you dig up in the backyard? Or the other kind they sell at Walmart, "Trout Panfish worms"? And... what do the red worms do? How do they harm our snakes?
That ought to keep some of you busy a while
Thanks all!!!

[GGarter]

Hey Suzoo.

Allways nice to be put to work!

Concerning your past feeding with thiaminase-consisting species, you don't need to worry.

The Thiaminase is a highly selective enzyme, created for one single purpose, which is to break down Thiamin (Vitamin B1). (quote from my dear father, the biologist)
That means that if your snake hasn't shown any signs of lack of vitamine B1, it will probably have no further problems, that of course if the diet is restructured, and the new diet is sufficient.

By the way, you can feed your garters with prey, that contains thiaminase as long as you give them a B1 supplement. You should ask an expert for the exact amount of supplement, as too big amounts of B1 can be harmfull to the snake as well.

I find it hard to believe that a home-testing kit for thiaminase is be found on the market, but I have been surprised before...
try making contact with some zoological researchcentre near you. maybe they can come up with some more results, than the ones in the book.

Concerning the worms, I'm afraid, the only thing i can tell you is that red worms are the tiny little buckers found in your composte. It is not the same species that you typically find in your lawn. maybe you'll come across a few, but you can allways look up some pictures on the net to compare.
I am not sure that I have the same "wormfauna" here as you do in the US, so an american would probably be able to help you better than me. (With the lengual barrier in mind)

hope this is will be to some help for you.

Tore

[Cazador]

Nice job Tore,

With one foot dangling over the side of the cliff, I'll say that the concentration of thiaminase is more important than its mere presence. I wouldn't recommend this but one might, for example, feed a goldfish once a month or even a couple times a month as long as they're also fed other types of fish lacking thiaminase or they're given a B1 supplement. Doing this, though, is flirting with danger because it's hard to know the thiaminase:B1 ratio within the snake at any given time. That's why it's safest just to avoid giving them fish with thiaminase. It MAY end up killing them, but at lower concentrations, it might just end up retarding their growth, impairing their nervous system, making them lethargic, or impairing their reproductive capacity.

Red worms (AKA "red wigglers") are also smaller than night crawlers and they're much less active. You could keep a colony of red worms in a flower pot, and they wouldn't crawl out of the pot. That's one reason they're great for composting... because they're unable to leave the locality where they're placed. Night crawlers, on the other hand, are able to crawl out of your hand, across your driveway, and into the neighbor's yard.

[KITKAT]

I have fed minnows alternating with nightcrawlers for years with no noticeable effect. I do not know what species the common bait minnow is, or whether it is on the thiaminase chart (or high or low in content).

Does anyone know?

[suzoo]

Thank you all so much! And KitKat, that is what I have done for years too. I buy minnows from the local bait shop and worms from Walmart in the winter. In the Summer I use minnow traps in the creeks and dig my own worms. Plus, in Spring, Summer and Fall, my kids and I catch frogs and things Garters like to eat.

[GarterGuy]

As much as your garters probably love the frogs you get for them, they're probably the worst thing to be feeding them. As a rule, you're pretty much better off feeding captive bred prey items, just due to the fact that they "tend" to have lower parasite loads (if any) when compared to wild caught prey. Also frogs can carry a number of parasites that can get into your snakes and cause problems. Since it's a natural prey item, parasites that affect snakes will be naturally found in them. That's how it works in nature, the only problem is that in captivity, the stresses that snakes have and the small area they live in, make it that the parasites can get out of control and can really harm the snakes.....where in the wild, they may be able to live with them.

[suzoo]

As much as your garters probably love the frogs you get for them, they're probably the worst thing to be feeding them. As a rule, you're pretty much better off feeding captive bred prey items, just due to the fact that they "tend" to have lower parasite loads (if any) when compared to wild caught prey. Also frogs can carry a number of parasites that can get into your snakes and cause problems. Since it's a natural prey item, parasites that affect snakes will be naturally found in them. That's how it works in nature, the only problem is that in captivity, the stresses that snakes have and the small area they live in, make it that the parasites can get out of control and can really harm the snakes.....where in the wild, they may be able to live with them.

Thank you! And I have to say you're right GarterGuy, I have been very fortunate so far. I do raise Shih-Tzu puppies and am familiar with Panacur and "Frontline", and my Vet. even lets me use his microscope. But I probably shouldn't take chances! I love my snakes too much!
Thanks, again, Suzoo

[Cazador]

Hi Ryan,
Have a look at Eisenia fetida and Eisenia andrei. They're both commonly referred to as "red wigglers," and they're used for composting. Here's a Wikipedia link to the first species. Cheers,
Rick

Eisenia fetida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ClosedCasket88]

niow these just lok like small nightcrawlers according to that pic .

ive seen very bright small redworms b4 in various mulch/organic stuff while out in the wild and they are very bright and almost look fake, i was assuming these are them red wigglers .
so red worms are the red wigglers they sell at fishing shops ?

[Stefan-A]

What's the deal with the name? Is it fetida or foetida?