Brumating in fridge

[Chondro788]

I have an old fridge that I would like to use for brumation, but is 44 degrees too cold? That is the highest the internal thermostat will keep it. I can put a Herpstat on it, as they have a cooling option and can run the fridge at a constant temp, like say maybe 50-55? I will be brumating easterns, red sideds, checkereds, and similis.
Thanks for any help!
Jason

[ConcinusMan]

I have a similar thing going on this season. I have a fridge that struggles to get as cold as 50 but occasionally can go lower. I use a thermostat with a probe that cuts the fridge OFF if the internal temp(probe where the snakes are) goes below 48. As long as the fridge has power than temps range 50-55 usually. That will work just fine I think but red sideds might need longer than 100 days like this.

[zooplan]

I´m using an old bottle frigde for a few years.
The temperature in it is depending to the temperature in my cellar.
I´ve never achieved less than 42°F, normally it´s about 46°F.
T.m.marcianus are called to get nerve damages when cooled lower than 40°F.

Because I´m still confused to skip from °C to °F, I did a little research:
Isn´t it funny that Germans use and Swedish degre scale, while the common thermometer in USA was developed by a German?

[ConcinusMan]

Because I´m still confused to skip from °C to °F, I did a little research:
Isn´t it funny that Germans use and Swedish degre scale, while the common thermometer in USA was developed by a German?

That is funny. I'm an American, obviously, so I have always known only the F scale. 32 degrees is the freezing point of water. WTF? Later, I learned the C scale. Makes a hellava lot more sense that water freezes (makes ice) at 0 degrees C. The metric measurement also makes more sense. Our money is based on metric! 100 cents to a dollar. 100 dollars X 10 equals a "kilo" or 1,000 dollars.

The metric system just makes a lot more sense to me, and so does the "C" scale for temperature. And this is coming from someone who was raised otherwise. You guys (and most of the world)that is on metric and C for temperature, got it right IMHO.

But hey, zooplan... bookmark this page and put it on your bookmarks toolbar on your web browser. makes it very easy to convert "on the fly" if you ever get confused. I use it often: Online Conversion - Convert just about anything to anything else

I like to keep my snakes at, or around 50 degrees F for 3-4 months. (90-120 days) That is, 10 degrees C. A few degrees warmer, or colder is OK too, for most species of garters.

I would not keep my garter snakes lower than 48 F for very long, even though they could survive colder than that briefly.

The point in keeping them cold is to slow their metabolism. If you keep them too warm (above 55 F) for 4 months, they will lose too much weight. If you keep them too cold (Below 45 F) you risk killing them. The point in keeping them cold is to induce breeding behavior and it's not necessary to risk their lives in order to induce breeding. A few months of cooler temperatures, without getting so cold that they die, is enough to induce breeding when they get warmed up again.

[ConcinusMan]

To simplify, 50-55 degrees F, for 90-120 days is ideal in my opinion. Monitor them closely for weight loss or sickness. If all is well, and the snakes have good weight and no sickness, 50-55 for 3-4 months is no problem. Just be sure to warm them, and increase the daylight hours very gradually. Warm up too fast, and you risk killing them.

Even if they survive very hard and cold conditions over the winter brumation, the most risky time, is during the warm-up. Even after surviving a very hard and cold winter, they can die if you don't warm them up gradually (slowly) in the spring.

Similis' and checkered's should not require such harsh conditions. A few months at 10-20 degrees below average, and shorter days should be enough to induce breeding when the days get longer and warmer.

Checkered's and similis' often do not brumate in the wild, depending on location. Shorter days and cooler temperatures for a few months should be enough.

Do not underestimate the power of the daylight cycle. Shorter days and slightly cooler temperatures, followed by warmer and longer days is usually enough to induce breeding for many species from the southern states.

[zooplan]

I don´t agree with slow warming after the brumation.
Found this interesting article on the web.
http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/p...&startPage=771

The study shows, that even T.s.parietalis is starting activity from a very low body temperature.
Furthermore: Think about how fast snakes heat up by basking!

[ConcinusMan]

I don´t agree with slow warming after the brumation.
Found this interesting article on the web.
http://article.pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/p...&startPage=771

The study shows, that even T.s.parietalis is starting activity from a very low body temperature.
Furthermore: Think about how fast snakes heat up by basking!

Funny thing about studies done in the wild; conclusions can be drawn that don't necessarily apply well to captive snakes. If you have thousands of snakes and they are all eating wild food, living wild lives, and you don't mind losing a few hundred, then fine.

So many studies, and it always seems to be red-sides. The study says they emerge with very low body temperatures. They can't tell you how many died.

I can tell you with confidence that the depths at which snakes in western WA and OR are not near as deep as Canadian red-sides and the brumation period is usually not more than 5 months. Just 2 feet below ground, the temperature stays nearly a constant 50 degrees F year-round... well shoot. You got studies to back it up. Do what you think is right.


Many studies say this, say that... I don't have much confidence in this particular study.

Just don't bring them out of 45 F and stick them right in a 85 degree tank. Or do it, and watch what happens. Apparently, I'm all wrong on this matter.

I still say 50 degrees and 4-5 months will be fine for most garters and you should warm them briefly to 70 for the first few days after bring them out, before jumping right into summer conditions.

[Stefan-A]

Funny thing about studies done in the wild; conclusions can be drawn that don't necessarily apply well to captive snakes.

I agree, but that doesn't mean that they don't apply.

[ConcinusMan]

I agree, but that doesn't mean that they don't apply.

I also meant to imply that they don't apply to all species of garter snakes.

Northwesterns are sometimes seen on the surface close to the den entrances on warm winter days/cold spring days and they seem to function at relatively low temperatures and can even survive brief freezing. Concinnus' staying in the same dens don't come out at all in winter and it takes 4-7 days of warm weather to bring them out in the spring.

All this has got me to thinking and so I found some active USGS ground temperature monitoring stations in my area which monitor varying depths. It will be interesting to see how the data coincides with the snakes' emergence next spring. In the mean time, I have requested by email, data from last winter/spring.

[zooplan]

Just don't bring them out of 45 F and stick them right in a 85 degree tank.

I don´t want to argue about this, apparently you´re right.
The temperature in my fridge is at least about 45°, in my cellar normally about 60°F and in my livingroom close to 70°.
The average spring or fall temperature in my enclosures is 75° to 80°F and my routine
for brumation is to put from the enclosure to a acrylic box, next day to put the box in my cellar and at the third day into the fridge.
The warming in spring works vise versa.
But `increasing the daylight hours very gradually´ sounds to me like a weeks lasting procedure.

BTW: From my impression Garter Snakes don´t mind illumination hours but heating time and natural daylight if noticeable.