Garter Diet Question

[RoccoIsMyBuddy. :)]

The pet stores i have went to told me that pinkies weren't something that garters eat. Which everyone told me that's not true. But is it really?

[adamanteus]

It's not true. Garters will happily eat pinkies, although it is undoubtedly not good to use pinkies exclusively. Variety is best.

[RoccoIsMyBuddy. :)]

What is a good variety for them? I'm new at this whole thing. lol.
I feed them nightcrawlers and little frogs, which i also heard they could get parasites from frogs.

[GarterGeek]

I feed my garters nightcrawlers and pinkies. Sometimes I'll take the risk of parasites and give them a salamander or small frog. A lot of people feed their garters guppies. (goldfish aren't a good source of food)

[bkhuff1s]

I cut up salmon from walmart and feed that to mine with a pinky every now and then

[adamanteus]

I use salmon and trout, bought from the supermarket, as a staple. This diet is supplemenred with pinkies and earthworms (night crawlers). Both salmon and trout, although 'safe' in so far as they don't contain thiaminase, are quite fatty fish. As previously stated Goldfish are all bad and should not be used.

[DrKate]

Also if you feed strips of salmon/trout/tilapia fillet, your snakes are missing out on the bones and guts which they'd normally get from whole prey, so you need to do some kind of supplementing at least with calcium powder and maybe also vitamin powder.

Frogs are a major prey source for wild garters, at least in areas where there are a lot of frogs. There are some parasites - notably lungworms, it seems - that can be carried by frogs and passed to snakes. There is a WIDE variety of opinion on feeding frogs, there are whole threads on it that you can check out.

One other option for whole prey that a lot of folks here use are frozen silversides (small fish), which you'll find at aquarium specialty stores. In my area even Petco, Pet Club, etc. sell them in their fish departments.

[GradStudentLeper]

The pet stores i have went to told me that pinkies weren't something that garters eat. Which everyone told me that's not true. But is it really?

In the wild, none but some Western Terrestrial garters do (Thamnophis elegans will sometimes eat rodents) and I would argue feeding them pinkies is a bad idea, because bluntly, everything has parasites, and pinkies may contain parasites that the snakes have not evolved to manage, while the ones they get from fish and frogs they HAVE.

Host-parasite interactions folks. The parasite, unless it is a wierd hyperspecialist (which exist, but are more rare than non-hyperspecialists) are much more able to host-jump than the host is to be able to defend against the parasite.

Additionally, I am not convinced that pinkies provide the right nutrition for a fish and frog eating snake, and at min are far too fatty for a snake to eat unless it is a natural rodent eater, especially considering the frequency at which they feed in captivity. Obese snakes are not healthy snakes.

As a result, I feed my snakes (both my Nerodia and my Thamnophis) a combination of small fish (of various species) and tadpoles/frogs. I have started a bullfrog and leopard frog breeding project (as part of my research, but I will produce WAY more tadpoles than I will ever use and what IACUC does not know cant hurt me) and that should yield me parasite free tadpoles, and soon will start the much easier project of breeding Guppies.

However I am also not convinced that thiaminase is a problem for fish eating snakes. They are not feeding on trout and salmon in the wild (Ok, T. atratus does), but rather on shad, minnows, etc. Fish that are high in thiaminase. The fish actually HAS thiamine in its system. Thiaminase is present in order to break down excess. What matters is not the amount of thiaminase, but rather the reaction rate with thiamine in the time the enzyme has to operate. A fish that is still alive, no problem. The snake's digestion will break down the enzyme like it breaks down all other proteins, leaving plenty of thiamine to be absorbed by the snake. Keeping the fish frozen is the problem, because even with the slowed down reaction rate, the enzyme is still active and has sufficient time to break down thiamine, leaving your snake with a deficiency. Granted, Goldfish are far too fatty, but live minnows (like rosy reds, or sthe stuff you catch in a trap), crappy, and other small fish... no problem.

[DrKate]

However I am also not convinced that thiaminase is a problem for fish eating snakes. They are not feeding on trout and salmon in the wild (Ok, T. atratus does), but rather on shad, minnows, etc. Fish that are high in thiaminase.

OK, so, I don't necessarily want to get all into this again, but it seemed worth making a small point... I used to think thiaminase was a problem only with frozen/stored fish, too, for all the reasons you stated. But there are quite a lot of studies on thiamine deficiency in wild salmonids feeding on alewives in the Great Lakes. (Alewives are invasive; the native fish that were the natural prey of the salmonids have low/no thiaminase.) So it does seem that a high enough thiaminase level can actually cause a problem for some predators even when consumed live. I don't think we know where typical feeders such as goldfish, rosy reds, shiners, etc. fall with respect to how *much* thiaminase they contain, so I think it's overly simplistic to say that there's "no problem" as long as the prey is live.

I do agree that a single high-thiaminase meal is unlikely to kill any garter that is otherwise on a varied and adequate diet. My baby Puget ate seven small rosy red minnows ten days ago and is perfectly fine, but he's also eaten guppies, silversides, and pinkies both before and since. But you'll never catch me recommending that to anyone directly, because I don't want their snake's death on my head if I'm wrong.

[GradStudentLeper]

OK, so, I don't necessarily want to get all into this again, but it seemed worth making a small point... I used to think thiaminase was a problem only with frozen/stored fish, too, for all the reasons you stated. But there are quite a lot of studies on thiamine deficiency in wild salmonids feeding on alewives in the Great Lakes. (Alewives are invasive; the native fish that were the natural prey of the salmonids have low/no thiaminase.) So it does seem that a high enough thiaminase level can actually cause a problem for some predators even when consumed live. I don't think we know where typical feeders such as goldfish, rosy reds, shiners, etc. fall with respect to how *much* thiaminase they contain, so I think it's overly simplistic to say that there's "no problem" as long as the prey is live.

I do agree that a single high-thiaminase meal is unlikely to kill any garter that is otherwise on a varied and adequate diet. My baby Puget ate seven small rosy red minnows ten days ago and is perfectly fine, but he's also eaten guppies, silversides, and pinkies both before and since. But you'll never catch me recommending that to anyone directly, because I don't want their snake's death on my head if I'm wrong.

If you have references to those studies, I am interested (particularly as it relates to the mechanism of the deficiency). Bear in mind as well that different organisms have different thiamine needs. The prey fish in question (Alewives) may not contain enough of it to provide for the needs of Salmonids, irrespective of the amount of thiaminase, as that WILL be broken down by digestion and not go into the animal's system to destroy what thiamine it has in system.

I certainly agree with the varried diet. If for no other reason than because the snakes get bored. But also because of nutrition. You need a staple diet that provides for most of their nutritional and caloric needs without supplimentation, but chances are you WILL be lacking in some nutrient. So variety is your friend. If you have the capacity to feed a wide variety of food, do it. I live in a place with a LOT of native fish and amphibians that have nice stable populations, and a lab that soon will produce WAY more tadpoles than I need (one female bullfrog will lay up to 47 thousand eggs... I have 4, and only need 5 thousand eggs per experiment...), and can easily breed guppies and can buy annelids if I want to give my garters some boneless treats... others might not be able to do this, but there are ALWAYS options for that sort of variety.