Smallest Garter or Ribbon Snake

[Chris 1]

Hey i was just wondering if you guys could tell me what the smallest Garter or Ribon snake is. I currently own a Royal which is really large bodied so i wanna get something quite small, for a change.

[gregmonsta]

I would just choose a species you like and then buy a male. The smallest species you won't find here in the UK ... or even Europe.
The males of most species will only average about 2-2.5'.

[guidofatherof5]

Smallest would be Thamnophis ordinoides (Northwestern Garter Snake).
Not sure if they are available across the pond.

[DIRK]

Hi

isn´t Thamnophis exul the smallest spec.?

greetings from germany
Dirk

[EasternGirl]

Are dekayis available over there? They are quite small aren't they? Not a garter of course...but very small.

[ConcinusMan]

Smallest would be Thamnophis ordinoides (Northwestern Garter Snake).
Not sure if they are available across the pond.

I agree. T. ordinoides. Adults as small as 12 inches are capable of breeding. The largest I have ever found was a very old female, just 2.5 feet. (76 cm) That was an exceptionally large one. Normally an adult female doesn't exceed 18 inches (45.7 cm) and males are significantly smaller. Litters are also generally small, usually 2-7 offspring.

I don't think this species is available outside the U.S. and they are just now becoming more common in U.S. collections.

[Stefan-A]

Smallest would be Thamnophis ordinoides (Northwestern Garter Snake).
Not sure if they are available across the pond.
Thamnophis exsul, Thamnophis godmani and Thamnophis brachystoma. 45-55 cm.

[ConcinusMan]

I guess it's not surprising to learn that T. brachystoma is a very close relative to T. ordinoides, based on DNA testing.

[guidofatherof5]

I stand corrected. ;)

[kibakiba]

Well, they are one of the smallest :)

[ConcinusMan]

Not to mention that northwesterns are probably easier to obtain than the ones Stefan mentioned.

[kibakiba]

Indeed... If we still had the pond, there would be plenty of lil northwesterns around here... I remember a time when you couldn't take one step in our yard without having a baby NW slithering quickly away... Adults were hard to find, though.

[katach]

Both my fully grown females are around 20-22in. That could be because of the regular feedings being in captivity.

[chris-uk]

I've not seen North Westerns for sale in the UK, as Greg pointed out early in the thread - the smallest species probably aren't available in the UK. Compared to a royal python any garter is going to be small though.

[Selkielass]

Not the smallest, but certainly at the small end of the species are the Butler's barter snakes. Adult females from my area average a bit over 20 inches and weigh around 40 grams- an easy handful sized snake for an adult, and not too much for kids to handle easily.
Adults I have caught are extremely docile, showing no inclination to bite. They adjust quickly to captivity, attack worms with the ferocity of tiny dragons. Others report their Butler's happily eating chopped pinkies, fish & worms.
Juveniles seem to be more sensitive to low humidity than adults. All seem to appreciate and potential use a damp hide when available.
Availability is limited in the U.S. but I'm happy to work with people interested in maintaining a healthy C.B. population.
Butlers show promise as a nearly ideal classroom snakes since they are extremely docile,easy to handle, and thrive in very small habitats.

I think Northwesterns might do as well or better as class reptiles, but I'm afraid their frosfeistiertier attitude might be off-putting to youngsters.

[Selkielass]

Too late to edit my previous comment- sorry about the poor spelling and typing- that was a phone entry.

Good article about keeping Butlers garters;
Domestic Mice as Food for Butler's Garter Snakes, Thamnophis butleri - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/domestic_mice_a.php)

[ConcinusMan]

Both my fully grown females are around 20-22in. That could be because of the regular feedings being in captivity.

If you go out and find all the females you can and measure them, you'll usually find that they average much smaller than that though.

[ConcinusMan]

Not the smallest, but certainly at the small end of the species are the Butler's garter snakes.

Once again, a very close relative of T. ordinoides, according to DNA sampling.



I think Northwesterns might do as well or better as class reptiles, but I'm afraid their frosfeistiertier attitude might be off-putting to youngsters.

What? They are a favorite pet snake of kids throughout the northwest. Very easy going, non-threatening snakes.

[kibakiba]

Northwesterns are pretty calm, my first 5 were the sweetest little guys you'd ever see. My only really mean one is Hades, and occasionally Runt... But she can't see very well, so you cant blame her really.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I have always heard that northwesterns were one of the friendliests of garter snakes.

[Selkielass]

Are they? Excellent!
The stories that some of you shared about some of yours acting feisty had me thinking that they were occasionally nippy.
I'm pulling together info for an article about keeping garter snakes as class pets with an emphasis on the small species as they require so little space compared to corn snakes and the like. (I hate seeing a full grown corn in a baby sized tank.) Both kids and teachers put gentleness and simple feeding at the top of their wish-lists.

[katach]

I wanted to bring the NWs we have in to do an educational thing at my son's school, but his teacher is ignorant about snakes. The kindergarten teacher was open to it, but never got back to me with a date to bring them in. I think as a class pet would be slightly iffy. With the heat and humidity requirements a lot of schools don't allow any plug-in heating due to fire codes and safety. I think it would be wonderful and very educational!

[kimbosaur]

My host teacher let me bring my girl in for the grade 4 habitats unit at my internship. The kids loved it! I tried to adopt an inquiry-based approach. I can see how having a snake long-term (rather than just one lesson) in the classroom would definitely be beneficial, and would better support the curriculum. If you can incorporate specific unit expectations in your article, more teachers might go for it!

Here's a link to the lesson plan if anybody's interested:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0pD_QN89eQSNjg0ODA2YjktMWVhMi00NTRjLWFhN WItMmUyYTA0MDJkZTQ4

[EasternGirl]

My son used to go to a private school where the teachers and students were very open to studying about snakes. They are very into nature and animals there. It's a small community based, co-op school, and they are very into preserving the environment, animal rights, etc. I love that school. I can't afford it anymore though. I took Seeley there to show him to my son's class last year and to talk about garters. They would probably love to have a garter as a pet in one of the classrooms but they use solar power and no air conditioning and the school is often stifling hot, so I wouldn't suggest it.

[Selkielass]

My son attends a Montessori elementary, and animals are used in the classroom as part of the science curriculum- there is a long chart showing the different Phylum of animals and plants, and the animals are kept in small tanks below the chart- a fish (Betta) an amphibian (Tree frog or toad usually.) a reptile (Lizard or snake) a small mammal (Hamster, mouse or other rodent) and finally a bird.

Ideally all the animals would be present in small habitats, with plants in between, but practically space is so tight that it is difficult to have more than 3 or 4 animals at a time and still give them an adequate (By todays pet keeping standards.) habitat.
While individual schools conditions are obviously going to vary, small species of garters fit comfortably in the small habitat space allowed by the 'standard' Montessori science set up.

S.A.N.G (Wild caught T. Butlerii female) is thriving in my sons school with just a lamp for daytime heat. She suns or bathes in her water dish all day and doesn't run or hide when the cage is approached or opened. She is fat, relaxed and doesn't seem to mind being picked up and handled by the children in charge of 'pet care', who spoil her rotten with night crawlers and constantly changing cardboard hides.

She is a welcome change from the previous stream of assorted lizards and over sized snakes that preceded her, none of whom were as healthy, happy and popular with the students. It seems like a win-win situation for all- especially the run-of-the mill pet store reptiles that aren't being placed in a too small, too cool classroom enclosure. Since the Montessori curriculum includes a classroom reptile, I'm hoping to provide them with a few options more suitable for classroom life.

[ConcinusMan]

Are they? Excellent!

Yes, the sweetest tamest individuals I've had were northwesterns. I just loved "Miss Piggy". If you placed my hand in the tank, she would come to me and climb up my arm. She was calm and tame the moment I picked her up from the wild. No fuss, no musk, nothing.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rk-C1JIZew&feature=channel_video_title


I've had ones that won't calm down and stay nervous but I usually don't keep them long. But I certainly wouldn't describe them as nippy or aggressive in any case. A few will get hostile and bite when first caught but that only lasts about a minute.

[Selkielass]

I remember reading her story!
Love her bold red stripe.
She went to live with Shannon, didn't she. (Or is my memory being unreliable again.)

Is anyone breeding and selling Northwesterns on a regular basis? (U.S. and overseas)
I don't want to send Teachers on a wild goose chase searching for Northwesterns of they are as scarce as Butlers, without giving fair warning. I'm playing with the idea of breeding some Butlers for classrooms, but I don't see myself doing it on more than a very limited basis.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, Shannon got her. I think there are several reasons they don't have a big presence in the hobby.

Very small litters. Unpredicible color/pattern outcome in the offspring makes them less than desireable to breeders looking to breed specific morphs. Offspring are often more difficult to raise than other species. If you don't have experience with them, offspring mortality rate can be high. And there's the diet issue. Many will only eat slugs and / or worms and most are very difficult, if not impossible, to switch over to other foods. Even with an abundant supply of WC snakes, only a few turn out to be good captives.

[kibakiba]

I don't get why you make it seem like it's so hard getting them to eat something else. All of mine eat pinkies, they don't take other food as readily as they do with pinkies. What, do I just have the godliest of all godly northwestern garter snakes? I know Kats NWs eat pinkies, too.

[ConcinusMan]

What can I say. Just speaking from about 25 years experience keeping wild ones. The majority are very picky. Took me over a year to finally get miss piggy to eat something besides worms and slugs.

If you've only kept a few in your life and they were easy, and ate pinkies, it can seem that they are all like that but I've kept perhaps thousands and the majority have been strictly slug / worm eaters or flat out wouldn't eat at all. I end up releasing perhaps 70 percent of the ones I try to keep. If I get them from wetland habitat I have a little better luck getting them to eat fish and pinkies. It's logical to assume that perhaps it depends on locality. I just think that if someone rounded up tons of them and put them straight to market, the majority of them would probably be dead within a year.

[kibakiba]

Well, here we have field mice... So perhaps they eat some every once in a while so it's not all that hard to switch them over. I don't think they'd really eat that many of them often, but if food is hard to come by (like it often is in the summer here) the only things to eat are really stupid slugs that sit out in the sun all day, or the baby mice that run rampant everywhere in our field.