Hydra

[aquamentus_11]

Finally decided on a name: Hydra. Here she is. Still not eating, but my little buddy: she runs away from food, but comes toward my empty hand when I put it in the tank :D


http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01116-20120209-2028.jpg

This is how I found her tonight: about an inch below the lid. She's loves the dark and is especially active around 8-9pm when temps have dropped down into the mid-low 70's.


http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01130-20120209-2045.jpg

Here's her toad-killing face.


http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01144-20120209-2056-Copy.jpg

She's not quite as orange as these pictures makes her look. I think the camera is adding some yellow because her head is green not brown.


http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01146-20120209-2110.jpg

She loves to curl up in the soil underneath the bottom-most leaves of the ficus with only her head poking out. Wish I had a pic.

My desk is in the direction she's facing: she is trying to blend in and spy on me.

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking little scrub.

Have you tried putting some food in a dish under the hide and leaving it overnight?

[aquamentus_11]

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01122-20120209-2039.jpg

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01118-20120209-2030.jpg

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01131-20120209-2047.jpg

I love how finely patterned her tail gets as it tapers. Makes you appreciate the similarity between them and the red-spotteds. You can sort of see how thin her tail is, Hope that's normal.

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01138-20120209-2052.jpg

This gentleman (Ted) has taken quite an interest in the young lady and his intentions are not on the up and up. He isn't used to me not taking his side with smaller edibles. He goes outside all the time so I'm sure he knows what she is. She keeps a very close eye on him at all times. When she reaches 3 feet though, he might change his mind about her.

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01129-20120209-2044.jpg

[aquamentus_11]

Good looking little scrub.

Have you tried putting some food in a dish under the hide and leaving it overnight?

thanks, she's a real sweetheart.

yeah, I've tried that a few times without success. I guess she'll start eating once she becomes desperate enough....:confused:

[aquamentus_11]

The black patches behind their heads also really show the relation to the Natrix spp. other members have posted. I wonder what the value of the red markings is. I'd guess something to do with enhancing the "flattening out" threat display. Anyone have an answer to this?

[EasternGirl]

I'm not sure about the head markings...interesting question though. Good name choice... She is a very pretty girl. I don't think that her tail looks odd in the fact that it gets thin like that...I think that is common in some females...I was wondering though if she had some wounds or retained shed on the end of her tail...it looked a little bumpy or something...could you post a pic of a close up of the bottom of her tail? It may have just been the pic. My cats also like to sit and stare at my snakes...not sure who would win if it came down to it though. My cat, Ian, actually found Cee Cee in my flower bed. He had her cornered and all of the sudden he went flying backwards...I looked to see why my cat flew backwards out of the flowerbed...and there was Cee Cee...coiled and striking! I think it's safe to say Cee Cee won that one!

[aquamentus_11]

haha it's always worthwhile when a cat finds out that he bit off more than he can chew. they need that to tame down their egos.

yes, she did have a few little scrapes down there. that was the one part where her shed didn't come off fully and needed my help. i just grabbed the end of the shed and she scooted out of it. i've also been keeping an eye on it because of the bumps, but i think those are just scabs. i'll get some better shots of it this afternoon.

[GarterGuy17]

She looks just like jade !!! :) Very nice .

[aquamentus_11]

That's what I said when I watched Jade's video. We must have a thing for redheads.

Being anal, I had to go check on her tail. She exploded on the scene when I woke her up: like literally erupted out of her hide and stopped dead-still in the middle of her tank haha. Her tail has a little scab on the dorsum which is healing pretty nicely. Tail is fully functional and has great grip strength all the way down. I'll still get you those pics.

Steve, I tried leaving some more food in last night, but no dice.

[guidofatherof5]

Steve, I tried leaving some more food in last night, but no dice.

Always worth a try.

[tress29]

haha it's always worthwhile when a cat finds out that he bit off more than he can chew.
Yesterday my boys had the ferrets out in their playpen. Our cat, Houdini likes to get in there and play with them. I don't know how he got on Farin's bad side, but she had hold of his bottom lip and he was bawling like a baby! Sure wish I had been home to see that!

[EasternGirl]

Oh right...are those the scabs from the wood piece? As long as they are healing up nicely and don't look infected or anything...no worried. I forgot about that...sorry. I wonder what we can do to get her to eat. Garterchick hasn't gotten back to you?

[aquamentus_11]

Nope, not a word. She did tell me she had her on worms and pinky pieces.

[EasternGirl]

I'm just wondering if there was a certain way that she fed her that she was used to or something. That's a shame that she isn't getting back to you. I think it's important to be able to communicate with the breeder so that you can ask questions, express concerns, etc. The breeder that I got Hermes from, Jason, followed my thread on Hermes after I got him and saw that I was having problems getting him to eat and gave me tips for feeding him...I thought that was really great.

[aquamentus_11]

Yeah, it would be helpful. She's probably just really busy. I don't think Hydra would have gotten this long if she wasn't eating for her and I trust her, regardless: she seemed very concerned about her during the whole shipping process and was helpful through it all. I've tried various lids, hemostats, forceps, fingers without luck. She seemed to react best to the live fish, but guppies are $3.50 a pop and that's too rich for my blood. The only other feeder fish available are goldfish (which I'm trying to avoid), platys (more expensive than the guppies) and some shiner-ish looking ones that are too large. I can't believe that she didn't have interest in the trout.....I wanted it.

[EasternGirl]

Well maybe she has some stuff going on right now in her life and she will get back to you when she can. As far as the feeding goes, I certainly understand not being able to spend a fortune on feeding your snake. But could you buy a couple guppies just to try to get her to eat something now since she hasn't eaten...and then we'll go from there? You could also try different kinds of fresh fillet. My snakes love salmon...not trout so much...and they don't like tilapia. I buy fresh Alaskan salmon at the seafood counter at my grocery store.

[aquamentus_11]

I will try both. today. I know the cat would appreciate it if she went for salmon: he gets a taste when I prepare fish for her :rolleyes:

[EasternGirl]

My cats come out meowing when they smell the fish I fix for the snakes. Okay...well, good luck and keep us posted!

[Mommy2many]

Beautiful snake! Good luck. Keep trying the worms and fish, she'll eat when she is ready. As for the cat, I have a snake and a cat that like to "look & play" with each other. I am constantly reminding both of them that "you" cannot play with the furry one and "you" cannot play with the slithery one. :)

[aquamentus_11]

I'm so tempted to just let her at him when she gets to full size.

[aquamentus_11]

Caught her doing her best ETB impression.

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01148-20120211-1818.jpg

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01150-20120211-1819.jpg

[EasternGirl]

Love those pics! I know I'm probably going to feel stupid after you explain...but ETB? As for the cat...probably not a good idea...they could both do some damage to each other. No luck getting her to eat yet?

[kibakiba]

Emerald tree boa I believe. (ETB)

[angrygamer]

Yeah, it would be helpful. She's probably just really busy. I don't think Hydra would have gotten this long if she wasn't eating for her and I trust her, regardless: she seemed very concerned about her during the whole shipping process and was helpful through it all. I've tried various lids, hemostats, forceps, fingers without luck. She seemed to react best to the live fish, but guppies are $3.50 a pop and that's too rich for my blood. The only other feeder fish available are goldfish (which I'm trying to avoid), platys (more expensive than the guppies) and some shiner-ish looking ones that are too large. I can't believe that she didn't have interest in the trout.....I wanted it.
Where do you go where they are that expensive? When I was feeding guppies I was paying 25 cents per.

As a matter of fact, I think I was actually paying 6/$1.00.

[aquamentus_11]

It's the only pet store in 50 miles, unfortunately. Their goldfish are go for 8/$1, but I didn't have any luck trying to convince them that I couldn't feed those to my snake. When I move this summer, there will be 4 other stores in the area including a Petsmart.

Yes, emerald tree boa. They have a distinctive way of coiling on horizontal branches. The 2nd pic looks like a garter version of it to me.

http://lamutamu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/emerald-tree-boa5.jp (http://lamutamu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/emerald-tree-boa5.jpg)g

[EasternGirl]

Oh..very pretty snake...yep...she looks just like one of those in the pic. Yeah, I can't imagine that there are a lot of snake owners in WV. I told my aunt in WV about my snakes and she said "I know what those are...we get them in my yard and I hit them with a shovel".

[aquamentus_11]

haha i asked my neighbors if i could have ups deliver her to their house if they came while i was gone. i told them it was a snake and they both recoiled dramatically yet seriously. i wouldn't put anything past some of the people i've met down here. owning snakes would be the least surprising thing i've discovered.......i had to do free health screenings last fall.....

[EasternGirl]

Do I want to know? I know in Fairmont...okay...let's put it this way. This is no joke. The Johnny Carson show was still on t.v. when I lived in Fairmont. On his show one night, Johnny said..."If you ever want to murder someone and get away with it, go to Fairmont, WV". At that time, it had the highest unsolved murder rate in the U.S. People could walk down the street with rifles and no one would even glance in their direction.

[aquamentus_11]

haha lewisburg (where i am) is very nice. just a lot of confederate flags for a state that was supposedly a part of the union. it's strange that people hang on to something almost 250y old and which they obviously were never affected by and don't fully understand. back home, we never talk about winning the civil war.....time to move on. plus, i can't get an unsweetened tea to save my life down here.

[EasternGirl]

Lol...Buckhannon, where my family is from is pretty nice too. Still a little backwoods...but they have a college there, so they have some college life too.

[aquamentus_11]

Left her alone today, but yesterday when I took her out, I noticed that her sides were not as full as they have been in the past. Her body seems to compress more easily as it passes over my fingers, etc. She still comes out at night and everything, but I don't like this state of affairs. If she gets to a month without eating, I'm going to just cram some salmon down there.

[EasternGirl]

There is such a thing as force feeding...and I think you can tube feed or feed with a syringe...people do it with babies and sick snakes. Do a search on the forum for force feeding, tube feeding, syringe feeding...look under urgent care probably. Can you call around and see if there are any vets that specialize in reptiles in the area? I know it's probably a long shot...but when I lived in Fairmont, I had a pet rat and I actually found a vet in Fairmont that specialized in rats. It's worth calling around. Usually if you call one vet, they can tell you if there is a vet around that sees reptiles.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah there's a reptile specialist at the clinic where I take my cat. I'm not to that point yet (I was actually sort of kidding). Seems to me that the risk involved in force-feeding (the stress of it all and potential for injury, especially with a delicate young snake) might outweigh the benefit in a snake that just doesn't want to eat. It may just prolong starvation. In a sick animal though, I could see its use.

[aquamentus_11]

she's not unhealthy, just won't eat.

[aquamentus_11]

I'm not a huge fan of Harry Potter, but I could really use someone who can speak snake. Forgive me for that reference.

[kibakiba]

There is no reason to force feed at this point, and in most cases it's more harmful than letting her eat on her own.

[EasternGirl]

I like Harry Potter...I'm a mom...so I kind of have to like all that stuff. I don't understand why she won't eat yet...and unfortunately, I don't speak snake. Did you try feeding her at night just like Garterchick said?

[chris-uk]

I believe that force feeding is very much a last resort, you're not there yet. I'd also go as far as not force feeding a baby that has never eaten.
Keep offering food, try a variety of foods, and the one that seems to work for the most reluctant feeders live fish.
Good luck.

[kibakiba]

Assisted feeding might be an option, but not yet. But, The only time I had ever force fed a snake was with Angel, and she perked up a little while after, and then died. The difference between my situation and your situation is that your snake ahs eaten, for someone else. Angel never ate for me, except for one pinky piece once or twice... But it was never enough to actually keep her alive. Your snake should be fine, she's not in the position that Angel was in.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah, i'll just keep offering food. when should i start worrying? it's been 2.5 weeks.

[kibakiba]

2.5 weeks is nothing. Maybe after a month and a half is when you should start worrying. To be honest, I'd just leave her alone completely for a week and then offer food. It's hard, but it may help.

[aquamentus_11]

I was starting to think the same thing.

[GarterGuy17]

Well who knows I took a risk with jade , I was told that she had stopped eating for about 3 weeks and was almost at a month , still went and picker her up. About 2 days later I felt like she needed to eat so I offered her food and she ate , I know exactly how you feel about thinking your starving the poor thing. :)

[EasternGirl]

Like I said before, Seeley went two months without eating...now he is not as young as Hydra, I know, but he is very small for his age. He was starting to show signs of malnourishment. He still looks malnourished to me...he has never been a hearty eater. He goes a month without eating here and there...and when he does eat, it is small amounts. But the vet said he seemed healthy enough...and he is still very active. Snakes go off and on food...a month is not actually a big deal to them. In the wild, they often can't find food for weeks at a time. In the winter, they have an instinct to slow down with their eating. I wouldn't get worried until about a month and a half either.

[aquamentus_11]

Ok, starting today, no contact except to change water and clean poop. Next Tuesday I'll offer food again.

[snakehill]

One of my radix just started eating after 2 months. Now shes eating like a pig! Don't worry! Hydra is GORGEOUS by the way! And your cat is a cutie too! :)

[aquamentus_11]

haha thanks. ted's my buddy and hydra is apparently now the idol to whom i offer sacrifices. i can't wait til i can call her a pig.

[EasternGirl]

She is Hydra the water goddess....perhaps she requires that you bow down in front of her enclosure once a day and chant...tell her she is all knowing and all that...maybe you just haven't been worshiping her enough. She is on a fast for spiritual reasons.

[aquamentus_11]

i should make a little altar in her basking spot

[aquamentus_11]

my buddies came over wanting to see her today, so I disturbed her for the 1st time in 4 days. since i already blew it, i figured i'd try the old food bowl under the hide trick again. in this case, i just lifted up her rock, put the food bowl down and replaced the rock. i'll be out of the house all afternoon, so we'll see tonight if this worked.

[EasternGirl]

Do you have a paper towel down over the substrate so she doesn't get substrate in her food?

[aquamentus_11]

no,she was under there and i didn't want to scare her out. the bowl is pretty broad and flat.

4118

[kibakiba]

Perhaps next time, inform your friend that you can't pick her up or disturb her.

Also, she can drag the food out really easily if she were to eat.

[aquamentus_11]

i know i know, i succumbed to peer pressure. they were the ones who suggested that i go with the red-sided garter over the atb because they thought it was a cooler-looking snake. i talk about her in class all the time and they always see me on here, so i felt compelled. i lifted her rock, picked her up so i could put it back down without pinning her then put her back in. was probably a total of 20s of disturbance. at her size, i'm not really worried about her swallowing the bark chips: they're too big. when she gets bigger though, i will have to be more careful. how quickly i forget your teachings.

[EasternGirl]

You are hereby sentenced to 5 hail Hydras and 10 our garter snakes prayers while on your knees in front of the tank.

[aquamentus_11]

i have offered up 3 toads and a leech

[guidofatherof5]

Toads usually carry a heavy parasite load. ;)

[aquamentus_11]

crap

[guidofatherof5]

Frogs and toads are the worst.

Refresh my memory. Have you tried guppies in a container yet?

[aquamentus_11]

in reference to the ribbon thread, will males of either species try to breed with females of the other species? obviously, the offspring wouldn't be viable, but maybe some snake-mules would pop out

[guidofatherof5]

I know I speak for many members of the forum when I say this is never a good idea.
You are right about the mutts. Muddies up the gene pool.
The babies must never be aloud to breed.
This means the babies will either need to be cared for by responsible owner(never to be released) or they need to be culled.
Better to never let it happen.

[aquamentus_11]

i would never breed my snake(s) until i'm more established. was just curious if they could/would. since they do, doesn't this happen in the wild?

[EasternGirl]

Sure they could and a male of another species would certainly mate with a female if put in with her in captivity because it's instinct to do so. But it's a big no no in the breeding world...breeders and snake enthusiasts don't like cross-breeding. We always breed within the same species. I don't know if it happens in the wild.

[guidofatherof5]

i would never breed my snake(s) until i'm more established. was just curious if they could/would. since they do, doesn't this happen in the wild?

Yes, in overlapping wild ranges it does happen. Once in a collection, snakes that would never overlap are in close proximity to each other and care most be taken to ensure they don't breed.
Like T.radix (Plains Garter Snake) and T.eques (Mexican Garter Snake) Their ranges are too far apart for this to happen in the wild.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tradix_range_map.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/T_eques_range_map.jpg

[aquamentus_11]

Frogs and toads are the worst.

Refresh my memory. Have you tried guppies in a container yet?


yes, twice. she just wanted out. i left her in for 4h the 2nd time.

[aquamentus_11]

i didn't really offer toads, btw i was kidding. i used the same old worms and pinky bits

[guidofatherof5]

What was and how was Tina feeding?

[aquamentus_11]

she was feeding .5" worm pieces and pinky parts without any problem. she just left the bowl in over night. i've been doing the same since the beginning and she ate that piece of worm for me her 2nd day here. the day after, she went for a pinky piece, but dropped it repeatedly as if she didn't like the taste or temp. started feeding cool pinky bits from then on. then went on to try guppies in her water bowl and in the container like your video shows. she took one of the tetras i tried after that, but it was too big for her to swallow and she won't go for any smaller fish since. interestingly, she went for that tetra because she smelled it without seeing it first and just instinctively reacted. she won't even sniff fish filet. wish i knew what was up. maybe she ate tonight......:(

[aquamentus_11]

i put a towel over the container when she was in it and a bit of water

[aquamentus_11]

well, she may have eaten 1 worm piece, but one of the pinky pieces is definitely gone. there were 4 worm pieces in the bowl last night, 2 are still there and i found one on the topside of her rock (i put the bowl under the rock with her). either she carried that piece out and dropped it, or more likely it crawled up there. i'll be cleaning her cage today, so i'll take a look in the substrate for the other piece of worm and pinky. hopefully they're in her tiny, shriveled up stomach.

reallllly thinking about getting one of those peninsula ribbons (T.sauritus sackenii). i have to decide if i can swing it first and everyone keeps saying it's not a good idea for Hydra. they're so gorgeous though and if there's a little female amongst them......if people truly think it will be bad for her I won't go for it. she's my buddy (even though she doesn't know it)

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not sure "bad" is the word to use.
With a good quarantine period in place (hint, hint), the possible problems you are having with Hydra should be over with.
Then introducing the ribbon is less of a concern.
It becomes your call as to whether you want another snake. Just keep in mind if having them together doesn't work out then you'll need to raise them in separate enclosures.
Which puts you back to square one but now you have two snakes that need buddies.:D

You might just want to buy two ribbon snake, just in case :D

[aquamentus_11]

haha 2 snakes period is pushing it for me: i'll be off on rotations in a few months then residency (light at the end of the tunnel) and i want to make sure that i can still give the proper amount of attention to my pets. 2 is my absolute limit. the ribbons were pretty thrashy......but i like thrashy music.....same thing?

what's the best way to introduce a new snake after the quarantine to ensure the best results? seems almost like a subject that needs its own thread.

[aquamentus_11]

oh, the ribbons are in with a garter at the moment. so, it's all on whether the red lady accepts a grey lady or not.

[EasternGirl]

This is big news Nate! That she ate something...even if it was just a little piece. This is progress. Little steps. I like your signature, btw. I don't think we're saying that it is going to definitely, without a doubt, going to be a terrible thing for Hydra if you put a ribbon in with her. We can't know for certain how either snake will react. The thing is from my experience, which is limited, but also from what I have heard from others on here...many garters who are shy or skiddish can be made more social by putting another garter in with them. I know it worked with Seeley, he was extremely skiddish and when I put him in with Cee Cee he did much better. The concern with ribbons is that they are very skiddish, they don't like to be handled much. If you put a ribbon in with Hydra...perhaps the two will be good for each other...help each other to be less shy...or perhaps the ribbon will be very shy and Hydra will mimic that behavior, and the ribbon will see Hydra being shy and not learn to become more social...and they will just make each other worse. I know with Steve...when he has a very shy and reclusive snake, he will put that snake in with some of his more social snakes to encourage the snake to learn to be more social and friendly...and it works. With Seeley, I put him in with Cee Cee, who is not as skiddish as he is...and now he is not as shy. Whether or not two shy snakes would help each other to become more social...I don't know, it doesn't seem likely. But, I don't think it will harm Hydra. You would have to have another set-up though...if even a temporary one...so that you could quarantine the new snake. I think ribbons may be more difficult to feed too...but I may be wrong about that. You may want to start a thread asking about feeding ribbon snakes.

[EasternGirl]

A grey lady? What kind of garter is it?

[aquamentus_11]

thanks. i will start one. i can't be sure that she did eat, so i'm hesitant to celebrate just yet. just because there is a missing mouse piece doesn't mean she ate it. i need to rule out it being in the substrate; it's too good to be true.

[EasternGirl]

For introducing snakes...I just put the snake in with the other snake and then stand back and supervise. I don't know if there is a better way. Keep in mind that you want two snakes that are housed together to be around the same size. A significant size difference can lead to one snake harming the other..or possibly eating the other snake. You also want to make sure the new snake is absolutely a female.

[aquamentus_11]

yes, i plan to look today to sex them. the other garter is the ribbon. the peninsula ribbons are grey-blue with reddish heads and whitish stripes

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b254/shuvon03/PenRibbonSnake.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

I love that ribbon look.

[aquamentus_11]

you guys, i just got back from looking at a little female ribbon. the calmest snake EVER. she didn't even twitch when i reached in to grab her. how can i pass this up? she's varying shades of green with an off-white stripe on each side.

[snakehill]

You can't pass her up!!! Do it!!:D

[aquamentus_11]

i didn't know satan was a member of this forum too lol

i like your style and i think i will perhaps monday when i have some time.

[guidofatherof5]

You can't pass her up!!! Do it!!:D

I concur.

[aquamentus_11]

ok fine. steve, do you have a vent and tail pic of shyblue? i need to be 100% sure that i'm dealing with a female. btw, they're feeding her and her brother crickets...

[guidofatherof5]

ok fine. steve, do you have a vent and tail pic of shyblue? i need to be 100% sure that i'm dealing with a female. btw, they're feeding her and her brother crickets...

I do not have a photo. Check out this thread. It will help with sexing. http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html

What a shame on the food issue. Did you tell them about the crickets?

[aquamentus_11]

i've tried in the past. the one lady knows to feed fish at least. the owner is pissed at me though because she ordered a wc garter for me before i even told her what i wanted. i took one look at the lesions on its tail and said no thanks. then i got Hydra.

[EasternGirl]

Make sure that you tell them about the crickets...perhaps make a copy of one of our caresheets and take it to them. Explain to them that the crickets can kill them if they actually eat them because they cannot digest the exoskeleton of insects and it creates intestinal blockage in the snake. More often the snakes do not eat them and die of starvation. If I were you I would go ahead and buy the snake and ask if you can pick her up Monday, if you really want her...so someone else doesn't buy her first. Just make sure she is a she and that you have a separate enclosure for her.

[aquamentus_11]

ah thanks. yeah i would say female on this one i think.

[EasternGirl]

Well...if the pet store will let you, you can take a pic of her vent and upload it and we can confirm it for you.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah they'd let me. the true battle is with my girlfriend. we're moving in together next year and she wants me to limit it to one snake. she is reasonable and i see her argument, it's just not correct. i really hate having to completely ignore her input.....:rolleyes:

[snakehill]

That's why my ex husband is my ex husband lol!!! :p

[aquamentus_11]

ha maybe i should listen then? you're confusing me

[snakehill]

Hey! If she wants to be with you and she knows you like snakes (or any other animal for that matter) she needs to be more tolerant(?) She should want you to be happy after all!!! ;) PS she doesn't read these posts does she? lol :p

[mikem]

if someone told me i could only have one snake, that would be the end of that relationship :cool:

[aquamentus_11]

haha she doesn't read them.

[EasternGirl]

I don't know what to say about that one...I mean, this is why I have been single for so long...I just can't do the having to answer to someone else thing...the compromise thing. I guess that makes me sound selfish...but you get to a place in your life where you like your life and how it is...you just can't imagine someone coming in and telling you how to do things or that you have to do things differently or change things. I guess I just feel like people have the right to live however they want...and if you live with other people, you have to change things..and so...I don't live with anyone else. If I find someone that can accept me as is...no changes required...and I can accept them as is...no changes required..then I would consider a relationship. But don't listen to me...I'm old and jaded. Ha, ha... I guess if I were in your position, I would just sit her down and say.."Look...I love you and I see your point of view...but this is something that I want and that would make me happy...could you please try to understand that and live with it, for me?". If that doesn't work...you can always try denial..."How did that get there?" or "No, I'm telling you I always had two snakes" :D.

[aquamentus_11]

I told her that she'd get a freebie for something equally extreme that she wants to do at a later date, no matter how much I dislike it. it's going to happen, it's just a matter of the depth and length of her anger at this point.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...but just for the record...two little snakes...not extreme. A 12 foot python...extreme to some, probably not to most people on here. 20 little snakes...extreme to some, but not to anyone on here. A giant tattoo of a garter snake on your chest...extreme to some, wouldn't phase a lot of people...wouldn't phase me. If you were my boyfriend and you brought an alligator home and wanted to keep it in a kiddie pool in the living room...we might have to have a conversation.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah, but she never had pets as a kid. she even had to warm up to my cat. she likes animals, she'll come around. Hydra is resting her chin on the end of her tail while looped over the replica I have of the argonath (giant statues from The Lord of the Rings). she's a doll.

[EasternGirl]

I think she'll come around...I haven't met too many people that can resist the charm of garters. Even my ex, who is pretty much terrified of snakes, always looks in to see what my snakes are doing when he comes over now.

[aquamentus_11]

i decided to go for it. it may not be a wise decision, but i haven't been taking many chances lately. already have the quarantine set up and ready to go. temp gun arrived today, too. guess i should set up a fecal for the ribbon?

[guidofatherof5]

i decided to go for it. it may not be a wise decision, but i haven't been taking many chances lately. already have the quarantine set up and ready to go. temp gun arrived today, too. guess i should set up a fecal for the ribbon?

The fecal test would be a great start since most ribbons are wild caught as far as I know.
I hope to breed Gulf Coast Ribbons someday.

[aquamentus_11]

is that what you have now? the blue color made me think shy was a western: i've noticed a trend towards blue colors in garters from the west and florida.

i'm hoping this ribbon will take my attention away from Hydra a little so she can settle in a bit better without me constantly trying to catch a glimpse of her drinking, etc. when i'm home, i'm either at my desk or in bed so she's always on my mind or in my line if sight; sort of hard to not want to check on her. i really hope i'm doing the right thing here: i feel a little guilty getting another snake so soon after getting Hydra.

[EasternGirl]

You're not doing anything wrong...as long as you still give Hydra plenty of attention when she is ready for it. I believe that every snake should have a roomie...whenever I plan to get a new snake...I plan for two...because I always plan for each snake to have a roomie so no snake has to live alone. I just think they do better with a roomie.

[aquamentus_11]

i noticed that. well, like i said, the temporary set up is all ready to go in the spare room. i'll do some heating dry runs on it today and tonight then i'll take some pics to post to make sure that she's a she. i may even do that today.

[aquamentus_11]

i'm continually impressed by the intelligence of these snakes. this morning, Hydra was out on her argonath, chin on tail tip again. i bent down to look at her and she flicked her head to look straight at me. as i came in close, she came in closer too, flicking her tongue. she got her nose right up to the glass and held my stare until i walked away, at which point she also turned and slunk under her rock. i love the curiosity, NOW EAT

[snakehill]

So does she have a problem with your Fascioloides magna? :p

[aquamentus_11]

that's a secret that only my snake friends get to know about

[EasternGirl]

I don't even know what that is...what is a fascioloides? Garters are so very curious and smart. I think Cee Cee has figured out what "shot time" is. Last night I went to get her out of the enclosure for her shot. Perhaps she just knows that me taking her out of the enclosure means an injection...because I don't take her out right now much beyond giving her the injections, since she is not big on being handled. She went into defense mode and started false striking at me and trying to look tough...and when I finally got her out of her tank, she wrapped her body around the cords hanging outside her tank several times so that I couldn't lift her away from the tank. It reminded me of my son digging his heels into the ground and holding on to furniture in the doctor's office when I am trying to pull him into the office for a flu shot! Ha ha...

[snakehill]

I didn't know what they are either! Had to google it! :p

[EasternGirl]

Okay Nate...be that way! Googling it....Ewwwwwwwwwwwww! You have that as a pet? Please tell me it is just a specimen in a jar from vet school? You can't keep one as a pet can you? How would you keep that as a pet? Am I being very blonde right now? Is this a joke?

[aquamentus_11]

i plead the 5th

[EasternGirl]

I must tell you Nate that you are very weird with this thing...is it living in your liver or something? :D

[aquamentus_11]

The 5th

[mikem]

name it flukey.

[EasternGirl]

Nate has a big fluke living on his face like in some syfy horror flick.

[aquamentus_11]

i am the fluke

[EasternGirl]

Wow...now we have flukes joining the forum...next we will have snakes joining the forum pretending to be people to try to feed us information...like, "You really should have an endless supply of pinkies available to each snake and offer them whenever the snake wants to eat". Lol...

[aquamentus_11]

yes, you should do that and all our snakes will go out with a bang. literally.

if it gets to the point where i become worried about hydra starving, do you guys think it would be appropriate to put she and Scylla in a separate feeding container together? is that still too risky? i think Scylla's monstrous appetite and feeding response could trigger something in Hydra's stubborn snake-brain. she's so nice and calm, such a sweetheart of a snake, just stubborn. maybe i'll try feeding with chopsticks. could be the hemostats and forceps are throwing her off.

[EasternGirl]

That would be breaking the quarantine...the idea of quarantine is that the snakes have no contact at all so that if the new snake has any contagious diseases, she cannot give them to the other snake. If for some reason Scylla has something that Hydra could contract...any contact at all...just for a couple of minutes...could pass the disease. That's why I said wash your hands between handling the two snakes. Now there are containers that you can buy that are made with two compartments...or with a piece of plexiglass that you can slide in, to convert the container into two compartments for feeding two snakes...but I don't know if this is considered safe to use during a quarantine period. If it is...I could give you a link to show you the containers. Does anyone know if it would be okay for him to put the snakes in one of these divided tanks during a quarantine period?

[aquamentus_11]

it's no longer an issue: the ribbon has mites. i saw them as i held her just now. the store owner told me she didn't have them and now i'm taking her back. i'm not going to put hydra at risk. sucks.

[aquamentus_11]

:(

[kibakiba]

If you got provent a mite you could have just treated it.

[aquamentus_11]

steve, if you read this, you should get to work on making blue babies. there's a ribbon-shaped hole in my heart lol

[aquamentus_11]

If you got provent a mite you could have just treated it.

thought about it, but it sounds like they're really hard to completely get rid of and i'd rather not put my other snake at risk. better safe than sorry.

[mikem]

mites are a pain. i'll get an outbreak in a cage or two from time to time. usually right after a reptile show or receiving a shipment . i've been using "rid" home lice control spray for years with excellent results. you can buy it at walmart for $5 a can. take out the water dish and spray the bedding for a few seconds, mix bedding up and spray for a few more seconds. let dry for 45mins to an hour then put your snake back in. repeat in 2 weeks. that will take care of the mites. keep your snake well hydrated. even if you take the ribbon back, you might want to go ahead and treat your other snakes as mites will crawl out of the container and can travel a good distance for such small little blood suckers. also they can get on your clothes and hitch a ride.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah i threw my clothes in the washer as soon as i saw them on her. i feel itchy now and i'm now down 2 hides, a tub and my thermometer/hygrometer.

[EasternGirl]

Do what Mike says and don't take her back. If you have to treat Hydra as well...you might as well keep her. And think about it this way, the pet store probably won't treat her and she will get sold to someone who won't know how to deal with it and she will suffer. It sounds like Mike has had success with this stuff...I would follow his instructions...you love her...don't take her back.

[aquamentus_11]

i took her back immediately when i saw the mites and watched as the owners sprayed her and the other snake she was with. then i made sure that they treated their cage and put them in a different cage. i really liked her a lot; she was gorgeous, calm and a great eater, but what's done is done. i threw out her entire set-up and wouldn't have anywhere to keep her right now anyway. maybe i'll head over and get another tub tomorrow and go pick her up after i know she's had sufficient time to de-mite. this way the mite treatment is at the owner's expense ;) how long does it take for her to be de-mited after being sprayed down?

[mikem]

the spray they probably used was something like reptile relief. it kills the mites on the snake, but not in the cage. there's going to be mites back on her as soon as she's placed back into the cage, unless they treated it too. mites lay eggs. if you don't see any for a week that doesn't mean they're gone. the eggs will hatch and the cycle repeats. that's why you have to treat the bedding twice. once to kill the mites currently alive and once to kill the newly hatched. a third treatment would probably be ideal just to be sure. soak your snake in some luke warm water while the bedding dries from the spray. that'll drown a lot of the mites on her. the residue on the bedding will take care of the rest. and like i mentioned earlier, remove the water dish while spraying.

[aquamentus_11]

sounds like i overreacted.......they sprayed down the old cage and then put them in a new one after they sprayed the snakes themselves.

[EasternGirl]

I wouldn't have taken her back to that place. I do understand you protecting Hydra...but you may have to treat her now anyway.

[EasternGirl]

I have no idea about that stuff...maybe buy some when you are there and then you can treat her again with it. Read the directions...maybe it tells you how many times to treat and how long to wait between treatments. Or, you can use the stuff Mike suggested and treat the new enclosure before you put her in it. Just make sure you wait the amount of time he said before putting her in.

[aquamentus_11]

i'll keep an eye on hydra. the ribbon was in a plastic tub with a locking lid. i wouldn't expect a lot of mite traffic, but i wouldn't rule it out either. taking her back may not have been the ideal thing to do, but it solved the problem. i could never be sure that they were all gone. i'll just stick with cbb's from now on.

[mikem]

Any snake can get mites...wild caught, captive born, captive bred, captive hatched... doesn't matter. Eventually everyone who keeps reptiles will have to deal with them. Just keep an eye out over the next couple of weeks, but you're probably not gonna have an issue.

[aquamentus_11]

ok, cool. thanks for the help

[EasternGirl]

So..you're not going to go back to get her then?

[aquamentus_11]

no. as much as i'd like to, i have a responsibility to keep hydra healthy.

[aquamentus_11]

i don't hold out much hope for Hydra these days. she looks great, but she doesn't even react to food. the motion of live fish or worms has no effect. she doesn't even flick her tongue at them. she will starve. i don't know what's wrong and it's frustrating.

[Selkielass]

What a shame. I had a hard time getting Abby to eat when I first caught her, but she came around eventually.
I hope you have a break-thru soon with Hydra.

[aquamentus_11]

thanks. it's going to be hard watching her slowly starve.

[aquamentus_11]

the spray they probably used was something like reptile relief. it kills the mites on the snake, but not in the cage. there's going to be mites back on her as soon as she's placed back into the cage, unless they treated it too. mites lay eggs. if you don't see any for a week that doesn't mean they're gone. the eggs will hatch and the cycle repeats. that's why you have to treat the bedding twice. once to kill the mites currently alive and once to kill the newly hatched. a third treatment would probably be ideal just to be sure. soak your snake in some luke warm water while the bedding dries from the spray. that'll drown a lot of the mites on her. the residue on the bedding will take care of the rest. and like i mentioned earlier, remove the water dish while spraying.

have you used Rid with <1y old snakes too?

[EasternGirl]

Nate...is she active, pooping, drinking, and flicking her tongue...other than at food?

[aquamentus_11]

i've never seen her drink, but she definitely poops. she's sort of active, mostly just stays coiled up in various places. she flicks her tongue. i'm not saying this to be dramatic, but i don't think she will ever eat.

[garterchick]

So sorry, Nate, wish I couold help. She ate so well here but maybe it was the competition that made it so. I keep all the babies in a community tank and feed in there too, just have to keep a close eye while they're eating. Don't give up on her yet, she may still turn around. Did you withhold food for a week as it's been suggested by other members?

[EasternGirl]

Would it be possible for you to get another baby from garterchick to put in with her? Perhaps a baby that was already in with her so that you could maybe skip the quarantine period...I'm just thinking outloud here....I know your girlfriend would probably have an aneurism but...if it would save Hydra....

[aquamentus_11]

i went 5 days then offered because she came right up to the glass when i was preparing some salmon. she didn't go for it, so i'm starting the week over. i haven't given up, i'm just coming to terms with the possibility. i'm the one who should apologize to you if anything.

[aquamentus_11]

Would it be possible for you to get another baby from garterchick to put in with her? Perhaps a baby that was already in with her so that you could maybe skip the quarantine period...I'm just thinking outloud here....I know your girlfriend would probably have an aneurism but...if it would save Hydra....

haha, that would mean no ribbon. i promised no more than 2

[garterchick]

No appologies needed, it's nobody's fault, it's just something nature can deal to us. I wonder if it could be the shipping that caused this response from her? You'd said she'd gotten kind of cold, maybe that kicked her into "brumation mode"? I don't know if that's a possibillity, maybe someone else on the forum can tell you. As far as sending you another snake, I don't have another female red-sided but I'd be willing to send you a '11 female albino checkered for just the shipping cost. That way you could still keep them in the same enclosure without breeding activities to worry about. Let me know if that's something you'd consider. Also, during the week of 3-12 I'll be in your neck of the woods (roughly) when I visit my son in Augusta, WV, so maybe you'd want to meet up then and receive the other snake, if that's the route you want to take.

[aquamentus_11]

i actually asked that brumation question when i first noticed that she wasn't eating and the general consensus seemed to be no. i appreciate the offer, but i think i had better just focus on this one snake now. she hasn't come out all day or at all last night, she's usually out spying on me.

[aquamentus_11]

looks like she's about to shed. this is her 2nd shed in 3 weeks. how can she be growing without any eating?

[mikem]

have you used Rid with <1y old snakes too?

yep. just make sure it's completely dried before putting the snake back in. i wouldn't bother using it though unless you actually see mites on her.

edit: oh and another place mites can come from is bedding. i've purchased bedding that actually had some mites in it. not sure how common this is, but it's happened to me once.

[aquamentus_11]

ok, cool

[EasternGirl]

I was wondering if an impending shed could be a possibilty. If she is shedding and growing, these are all good signs, Nate. She is apparently not hungry right now. I think she will eat when she is ready...I don't think she will starve.

[aquamentus_11]

is 2 times in less than month a normal rate of growth? tina, when were they born again?

[EasternGirl]

I honestly don't know what a normal rate for shedding is...it seems like different snakes shed at different rates. Hermes is almost 8 mos and he has shed twice since I got him at the end of November. He seems to be growing at a good rate. Seeley is maybe 2 years old, probably less...he doesn't eat well...and he sheds every couple of months. Cee Cee is full grown...and she has been shedding a lot lately...about every 3 weeks the last 3 sheds...but it's possible she is gravid.

[garterchick]

They were born in early July of last year.I think shedding twice in 3 weeks is within normal paremeters, I bet she'll start eating soon.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah, Nate...I'm thinking...my snakes go into shed mode a couple of weeks before a shed. It can take them a couple of weeks to get up to the cloudy eye phase, and then a couple of days to a week until the eyes clear up, and then it takes a few more days before they actually shed. Many garters want nothing to with food during the whole shedding process. So, if she has shed twice in the last 3 weeks...then she has pretty much been in shed mode the whole time you have had her, which could completely explain why she hasn't been eating. I would hold off on offering any food at this point and then as soon as she is finished shedding, offer food.

[aquamentus_11]

ok i'll try. she did try to eat that fish right after her last shed.

[EasternGirl]

What happened with that again? Why didn't she eat it?

[aquamentus_11]

she took the biggest one :D it was too big for her. that's so hard to judge when you're at the store without her head to measure, but there were 3 other perfectly-sized ones she could have gone after. she pulled it back into her lair like the monster she is, but had to drop it and then was too upset to try again. we'll see how she does this time. she comes out to hang out and bask even in full opaque, so I can't believe that it's stress that's preventing her from eating. i've held her for a total of 20s in the past 2 weeks

[EasternGirl]

That happened to Seeley before...he tried to gulp down pieces of food that were too big for him and then wouldn't try again. I know it can be very frustrating because I go through it with Seeley all the time. I sit and watch him get skinnier and skinnier and he barely eats...I keep trying different things but he is so picky.

[mikem]

sounds like they definitely got her attention. i bet you'll have better luck this time!

[aquamentus_11]

hopefully, she cleared up yesterday so i'm expecting a shed this weekend. other good news, wiped her down and didn't see any mites.

[EasternGirl]

Good news!

[aquamentus_11]

2nd shed a success. a perfect shed too. i think keeping the humidity around 60-70% during and after the blue phase really helps though i haven't tried without

[aquamentus_11]

and she ate:eek::D:D:D

[guidofatherof5]

2nd shed a success. a perfect shed too. i think keeping the humidity around 60-70% during and after the blue phase really helps though i haven't tried without


and she ate:eek::D:D:D

Double rainbow. What can it mean?:D
Glad to hear about the two good things.

[snakehill]

Excellent! All that worrying for nothing!! ;)

[aquamentus_11]

thanks, steve. actually she retained a bit on the tip of her tail, but i got it off. i think she just likes bigger pieces of worm than what i was offering before: this was about 2" long. i just dropped it on her basking rock and she murdered it. i'd imagine at 8 mos and a month fast, she wants more. i'll let her cool off for a bit (the tail business upset her a bit) then i'll go get some more nightcrawlers.

[aquamentus_11]

Excellent! All that worrying for nothing!! ;)

yeah....i'm a tad neurotic at times, but now at least i'm not a failure:D

[aquamentus_11]

ok, i'm going now because i'm getting the look. is it ok for a grown man to be giddy?

[snakehill]

yeah....i'm a tad neurotic at times, but now at least i'm not a failure:D Prozac works for me! :p (most of the time! :rolleyes: )

[aquamentus_11]

a few new pics if anyone's interested.

first and foremost is a strange one. she retained a bit of her shed on the tip of her tail and I had to gently help her with it. everything seemed to go really well with it. when i got back from the store with more worms, her tail looked like this. i didn't scrape hard enough to damage her and the retained piece came off easily after some warm water and paper towel. i wonder if this was underneath that and caused the skin to stick here. it looks well-covered and i never saw blood so i'm thinking it's old and from her ordeal with the sharp wood. i never saw this before though....do wounds reopen slightly after a shed? is there any concern for loss of her tail tip? it remains mobile and she uses it just the same as always. i worry that there might be a stricture there as it heals and the vasculature may get squeezed off. hopefully not.
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01204-20120225-1101.jpg



anyway, she did some exploring today through my girlfriend's lecture material and computer.
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01194-20120225-1055.jpg


look how the color fades to the orange-red as it progresses from the back of her head. what a dish.
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01196-20120225-1057.jpg


afterward, i put her on the bromeliad i keep on my desk and she stayed there for 20min just hanging out and flicking her tongue. she's very mellow once she's out.
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01205-20120225-1102.jpg

she sat there like this resting her chin on the rim of the flower pot. this is organic potting soil, btw, so it's safe.
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01212-20120225-1106.jpg


just thought this one looked pretty. that's right, PRETTY.
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01221-20120225-1120.jpg

[aquamentus_11]

updated pics of her set-up.

this is looking over top from cool to warm side. she likes to bask on the magnetic rock ledge up here. i keep the fake vines covering half of it because she likes to move in and out of the shade. this is also the sacrificial altar where she accepts my offerings.
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01213-20120225-1107.jpg


and the corresponding lateral view
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01222-20120225-1121.jpg



i hope to foster her hanging out with me on the bromeliad while i study. i never thought a reptile would do that sort of thing. thanks again tina for a great snake.

[EasternGirl]

OMG Nate this is so major!!! I just came on here and read this and I am so excited!!! I could just jump up and down! My family is going to think I'm nuts...who cares...this is awesome! She ate! I have been hoping for you and worrying for you and...this is just a very big thing. I am as excited as if it were my own snake! This just made my day. I am so happy for you. She shed and she ate...good girl Hydra...we knew you had it in you. See...the altar paid off. She's a beautiful girl...she looks great. Her tail is a bit concerning...looks like she could lose that piece. But, that happens...it is a pretty common thing with garters. Tail rot. They get an injury to the tail and then the tail dies and falls off. If it does, she will just have a stub there. Seeley has a stub tail...looks like he probably lost the end of his tail when he was a baby outside before I found him...it happens a lot in the wild. You're a med student...I would just keep an eye on it...if it looks like it needs it, put some hibiclens or betadine on it. If it falls off, definitely put some on it...and some neosporin and just keep and eye on it. Congrats again on her eating!

[aquamentus_11]

thanks. it is a big deal because now she won't wither and die. i think her tail has been like that. i really hope it doesn't fall off. it's such a nice tail. i think if i keep the scab soft it'll have a better shot.

[aquamentus_11]

i think if it was necrotic, she wouldn't have use of it. plus, a loss of circulation to the tail tip would be pretty painful. i don't think she would be using it if it was hurting

[EasternGirl]

I honestly don't know about that...wish I could tell you more on the subject.

[guidofatherof5]

Love the photo spred. Very nice.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tail4.jpg

[aquamentus_11]

damn. how do i know when to cut it off? that looks like an old wound to me, steve. what do you think?

[chris-uk]

If it needs to be cut off it will feel like a dry old twig, just completely dead. It's not going to cause any problems until the next shed, so no immediate worry. Give it a few weeks and keep an eye on it, I suspect that you'll see it drying out as the bloodflow dries up completely. It is worth keeping watch for any sign of infection though.

[aquamentus_11]

ok, thanks. seriously, where would i (or hydra) be without you guys?
i have a few pics i just took of it that make me think it may recover. we'll have to wait because they're on my gf's phone. i put some antibiotic ointment on it and applied sort of a milking motion toward the tail in an attempt to increase blood flow to the area. 2h later, i notice a huge improvement with a lot of filling out of that previously constricted area and a definite color change. looks much more like the original appearance of the area. i'll keep doing what i'm doing and hope for the best. i'll get those pics up soon.

[guidofatherof5]

Is there any retained shed in that area?

[aquamentus_11]

there was. i got rid of it and found that underneath. my assumption is that it was injured during the incident with the wood you warned me about and has been healing since then. the scab probably made the skin stick there and when i removed it, it reopened the wound. not sure how else to explain it: i was very gentle.

[aquamentus_11]

here they are. looks very promising to me.

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01223-20120225-1842.jpg
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01224-20120225-1842.jpg
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01225-20120225-1843.jpg

[EasternGirl]

I'm sure you did your best...these things just happen sometimes, Nate. I feel the same way about the forum...I don't know how I would survive with my snakes without my friends on here. :)

[guidofatherof5]

Time will tell if the tail tip is kept. Warm water soaking might help the circulation in that area.
Best of luck. Keep us posted.

[aquamentus_11]

i'll try the soaking. this seems to help these guys with a lot of things.

[aquamentus_11]

it's easier to compare like this. these are obviously both pics of the same side of the tail 2h apart. i think a huge improvement already: look at the return of color in the 2nd pic. i'll obviously keep watching it and i'll post pics as it progresses.

before
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01204-20120225-1101.jpg
after
http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac328/AQUAMENTUS11/IMG01223-20120225-1842.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Looks a lot better.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah it does.

[aquamentus_11]

:Dtoday was a good day:D

[aquamentus_11]

the way this lesion responded to the technique i used(it's called effleurage and i always considered it to be just some of the bs that our more alternatively minded docs had us learn) makes me think i was wrong earlier. now i'm thinking that the retained shed was cutting off supply under there for several hours and that area was just very compressed and borderline "bloodless". i notice that the scales are intact so my scrape theory is out the window. none of this speculating really matters, but indulge me. pics to follow when she has arisen

[aquamentus_11]

btw, the wikipedia entry for effleurage is not what i used. any "medical" technique involving the terms energy, aura or healing are major indicators of horse$#!% i'm a tolerant guy, but if you use them around me in a serious manner, i will scorn you.

[EasternGirl]

Rofl...then you don't want to meet my aunt...because she will try to do her reiki on you. Ha ha....

[aquamentus_11]

oh i know about reiki. my mom and aunt are into that garbage. a lady who does it went to my uncle's funeral along with some chump with "healing hands". it must be nice to live in a delusional world full of mystical energy and magic.

[EasternGirl]

My aunt tried to reiki my son when I was 9 mos pregnant. I was like...umm...get your hands off my belly crazy lady! I do appreciate some forms of alternative medicine. Within the realm of reality.

[aquamentus_11]

it depends what you're talking about. even the most popular stuff has very limited uses. acupuncture for example has only been shown to temporarily relieve lower back pain. that's it. still a lot of people are very into it. i know the alternative stuff, I just don't think it's all it's cracked up to be.

[EasternGirl]

I think alternative medicine can be good for chronic conditions and things that traditional doctors don't have answers to or solutions for. I was having digestive problems years back and my doctors couldn't figure out what was going on...it got so bad I could barely eat. My family doctor sent me to a naturopath and a doctor of oriental medicine who gave me some chinese herbal powders that worked...I mean, really worked. You know I was a shrink, so I know the whole "it works because you believe it works" thing. But I was really ill...I don't think I magically cured myself just because I believed in the stuff. I also know chemo patients who use chinese herbs to help with the nausea of chemo.

[angrygamer]

btw, the wikipedia entry for effleurage is not what i used. any "medical" technique involving the terms energy, aura or healing are major indicators of horse$#!% i'm a tolerant guy, but if you use them around me in a serious manner, i will scorn you.

Boy, you would have loved to meet my last vet.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah, some of them definitely have their benefits. i also think that plants that actually have benefits are very cool. i'm going to be a DO so i get the draw of some of the alternative medicine methods. plus, my older sister is a naturopath in Australia. i'm just very leery of it all: it gave osteopathic medicine a bad name for a loooong time. for example, in every country in the world except the US, France and Australia "osteopaths" are something completely different than an actual physician. they can't be surgeons and sound more like naturopaths or chiropractors to me. we can't even practice outside the US because of the bad name our predecessors left us (though the AMA also played a large part in it many many years ago). i can't tell you how many people have asked me to explain which things "real doctors" can do that i can't or if i just couldn't get into an MD program. truth is, I didn't want to be an MD (though after some of the bs they've made me learn, i have definitely questioned that decision). we do all the same things, the only difference is philosophical at this point. it just depends how you decide to practice. in fact, i'll be taking both the osteopathic and the MD boards. also, i want to go into surgery so i don't have a lot of use for the alternative techniques. that being said, i'm happy to answer questions about the philosophies if anyone has them: i know there's a lot of confusion out there.

[Stefan-A]

I think alternative medicine can be good for chronic conditions and things that traditional doctors don't have answers to or solutions for.
Depends on what it's based on. If there is scientific evidence that it works, that's one thing. Then again, "alternative medicine" that works, is usually called "medicine". If not, you're better off with a side-effect free placebo.

[EasternGirl]

My doctor is a DO...and I like the fact that he is open-minded about alternative medicines...but he doesn't have his head in the clouds either. DOs have come a long way. The hospital here is a very good hospital...very good rep on the east coast...and now they have DOs as attendings and running departments. I'm seeing more and more med students going into DO programs now.

[aquamentus_11]

her tail is still better than it was in the beginning, but it's a little drier than i'd like so i've got her soaking. she HATES soaking

[EasternGirl]

So do my snakes.

[aquamentus_11]

after soaking, the scales look pale and i can see hemorrhaging between them. doesn't look good now. i don't know how sensitive the tips of their tails are, but i pinched the segment distal to the problem area and she didn't respond. however, i did the same upstream of the area and still no response, though a little further up she did jerk her tail away. the positive side of this is that she trusts me almost completely now after all the handling and non-predatory tweaking i've been doing. i think i found that piece of retained shed a little too late :mad: poor stump-tail hydra

[EasternGirl]

It's okay...there are a few members with stump-tailed snakes on the forum...she'll be in good company. :o I wouldn't mess with it though...put some antibiotic ointment on it and leave it be for now. I'm not sure how to tell when you should cut it off though...you'll have to ask someone else about that.

[aquamentus_11]

If it needs to be cut off it will feel like a dry old twig, just completely dead. It's not going to cause any problems until the next shed, so no immediate worry. Give it a few weeks and keep an eye on it, I suspect that you'll see it drying out as the bloodflow dries up completely. It is worth keeping watch for any sign of infection though.

i'm going by this

[aquamentus_11]

yeah, it's done for. no need for a few weeks, it's dead now. i'll take her to the vet tomorrow. i just wish i knew how it happened. she shed over night and i came to check on her first thing in the morning and took care of the retained shed as soon as i saw it. this poor snake's life is a constant drama.

[aquamentus_11]

it's a twig this morning. i don't see any signs of infection, but she's still going to the vet to make sure. it's only approx. .25" so it shouldn't cramp her style. she's probably faster now without that extra weight. i do worry about her next shed though. i was pretty freakin diligent this past time and this still happened. i've heard stories of tails that just keep having problems. must prevent.

[chris-uk]

.... i do worry about her next shed though. i was pretty freakin diligent this past time and this still happened. i've heard stories of tails that just keep having problems. must prevent.

Our Eskerina lost a bit of tail when she retained a bit of shed that wasn't visible until too late (or... "a bit of shed that I was too inexperienced to spot until it was too late"). She's shed perfectly since, and without checking the records that's about 3 sheds. You need to be aware to check the shed asap after it happens, but it's not something to worry about - worrying is about as effective as chewing bubblegum.

[aquamentus_11]

ok then. glad to hear she did well afterward

[aquamentus_11]

the vet said no infection. she has snakes too apparently. she thought that she looked small for her age....i dunno. she's about 8mo and a little over 12". she also thinks her breathing looks labored. i think she was just a little worked up about having people open her mouth and look inside it. she was worried about how little she eats especially at this age (so am i) she seems perky and happy to me. is she small for her age?

[kibakiba]

They all grow at different rates, you can't put an exact size to an age... Thumbelina looks small for his age, but he's a perfectly normal NW 2 year old. He's only about 10, maybe up to 13 inches long now...

[aquamentus_11]

oh ok, good. i think she's fine

[kibakiba]

If she was 3 years old and 6 inches, I'd be worried... I haven't ever heard of that happening, though ;) I'm sure she's growing at her own rate, doing what her body needs to keep growing like a good little snakelet :D

[aquamentus_11]

yes, she is one of those. i just want her to now become half hoglet, too.

[katach]

They all grow at different rates, you can't put an exact size to an age... Thumbelina looks small for his age, but he's a perfectly normal NW 2 year old. He's only about 10, maybe up to 13 inches long now...

That is very true. I have a 7mo old male NW who is 10in.

[kibakiba]

Thumbelina was very tiny rwhen I caught him. For a NW, he's grown pretty fast.. If he were a radix, checkered or any other kind of large garter, I'd be worried if he were less than a foot at 2 years old... but even Snakey's a tiny little guy ;)

[katach]

Yeah. NW are small generally. Fish Bait is just a huge guy.

[EasternGirl]

I think considering how long she went without eating...that is a decent size for her age. She was shedding frequently, so obviously she has been growing. Hermes is the same age and a little over a foot maybe...generally females are larger than males, but size varies according to species and in different snakes...the fact that she went that long without eating and is that size...is great in my opinion. The breathing thing...my vet said the same thing...and I knew that Cee Cee always breathes like that when she is nervous...all you have to do is look at any of my snakes and they start breathing heavy. You have to remember that even vets with snakes...don't necessarily completely understand everything about garters. :)

[aquamentus_11]

You have to remember that even vets with snakes...don't necessarily completely understand everything about garters. :)

i was thinking the same thing. i asked this in chris' post re:spinal abnormalities, but how well do liquid supplements work when put in the drinking water? she hasn't had any Ca2+ since she left Tina.

[EasternGirl]

Well..Greg uses them and he seems to like them. I don't really have another choice because my snakes will not eat the food with the powder supplements on them. I would think that the powder supplements might be better because more people have experience using those...and you always have to be careful not to overdose with supplements. Most reptile supplements have dosages on them for reptiles other than garters...so you have to be careful as to how much you give them. So, with the calcimize, I did the math and technically you would be putting 60 drops per 2 liters of water according to the directions. Greg says he uses 20 drops per 2 liters to be safe...and considering how small garters can be...I go by his recommendation. Now...does this actually give the snakes a sufficient level of calcium? I don't know. But I figure it's better than nothing. You can try using repcal...the powder...it has D3 in it too. The way you use it is to lightly dust the food every 3-4 feedings. You could try lightly dusting, and mixing the food around and see if she goes for it. I may try it again with my snakes...since I often feed them chopped up mixtures of food...see if I can mix it in there and fool them. It would probably work with Cee Cee and Hermes...but with Seeley, I just don't know.

[aquamentus_11]

i have the Ca2+ with D3, but i also can't get her to eat, so putting it in her water is my only option.

[EasternGirl]

Did you see the link I put up on Chris' post? I put a link for the calcimize for you.

[aquamentus_11]

oh yeah, thanks. i'll go look for some at the pet store after class (and sneak a peek to see how Scylla is).

[EasternGirl]

Now...Chris said that he has a liquid calcium supplement that has D3 in it...I'm waiting to see if he says you can get it in the U.S., if so, you may want to wait and get that...much better if it has D3 in it to help with absorption of calcium...I'm sure you already know.

You better go back and get that snake...if someone else buys her, it's going to break your heart.

[aquamentus_11]

i'm working on it. slowly. slowly.

i have a uvb bulb so D3 shouldn't be as much of an issue.

[chris-uk]

Just in case you miss it in the other thread, sending liquid supplements in the post to the US isn't possible. Greg checked and apparently it would be siezed and destroyed by your customs-type people. So no buying calcium or vitamin liquid supplements here and posting them over to you.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...Nate was just going to go get the calcimize anyway. We can get that here. No D3 or multivitamins in the water for us yanks though.

[aquamentus_11]

she just did something i've never seen before. i dropped a nightcrawler into the foliage and just let it go. it dropped to the ground then started trying to burrow. Hydra watched this happen, but then did this move where te front half of her body sort of arched up and writhed back and she opened her jaws and stretched both mandibles. then she went back to watching. is that a yawn? it was incredibly dramatic

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like a stretch and yawn.

[aquamentus_11]

pretty impressive. it looked like she was winding up for a strike that would've just pulped that worm on impact.

[aquamentus_11]

she was looking HUGE yesterday afternoon. looked like a bulge, but if she did eat any of the food i left, it was another inch of worm and not enough to make her this big. she looks great though and i actually saw her drink: she hung down from the branch overhanging her water bowl and sucked it down. she was cruising around all afternoon. it was storming here, so as a break i went out and collected some worms. she went for one right away until she realized that she was being cooperative and stopped in her tracks. i dropped the worm on top of her basking rock, but she only watched it. it finally made its way between the glass and her rock. i couldn't move her rock to get at it because it was more fun to try with my hemostats. she actually rested her chin on the edge of the rock and watched me try to get the worm out of that crevice: may hand and hemostats were less than a centimeter away from her face and she just looked on! she even got a little closer after awhile. i couldn't believe it, it was so cool. first observable yawn and drink in one day plus a possible feeding and bonding sesh? where is my snake....

[EasternGirl]

That is awesome Nate. Just be careful not to get any substrate on the worms if you are letting them drop into the tank. If she is still pretty small, that half a worm you gave her the other day could give her a bit of a bulge. From what I remember, she isn't even as big as Hermes yet...a half a worm would give him a bulge..definitely.

[aquamentus_11]

well last i measured, she was 12-13", .3 oz.

[EasternGirl]

Right...okay...she is about the same as Hermes...he would have a bulge after half a worm.

[aquamentus_11]

oh ok that's awesome

[aquamentus_11]

just tried to feed her again with a worm. she struck at it twice, but didn't latch on. then she ran away and hid under her rock. i tried to tease her out, but finally just left the worm on a lid for her. she circled it 3 times, getting her face right up next to each piece and smelling, even pushing the pieces around, but she wouldn't eat them. she went back to them twice. i don't understand her: maybe she's not hungry but just reacted to the motion?

[aquamentus_11]

she literally just smelled a piece of worm then violently recoiled and shook her head.....

[kibakiba]

My babies used to do that at the sight of slightly alive night crawler chunks. They all just freaked out... Their first meal was fish and pinky ;)

[aquamentus_11]

it's weird though because she only responds to movement so if movement freaks her out, she's in trouble lol

[kibakiba]

Just give her some time ;) She'll get the hang of it eventually.

[aquamentus_11]

it's driving me insane. this was supposed to give me an outlet away from schoolwork.....

[EasternGirl]

Well..it is giving you an outlet away from your schoolwork..it's driving you insane and giving you something to obsess over. Seeley used to do that...and he is my picky eater. He would always do the dance or the ritual, as I would call it, he would stalk his food dish...circle around it...back away...dart in and out of his plants at it...sniff the food..back away...it could go on for hours before he would eat...and sometimes he wouldn't eat much at all, or he wouldn't end up eating. And he has gotten scared off from food...he has tried to eat pieces that were too big for him and then refused food for a month. Maybe it has to do with small, young snakes...some of them anyway...the timid ones, I have no idea. All I can tell you is that he eats sometimes...he surprised me and ate a whole plate of pinky last night and he usually doesn't like pinky...he seems to eat all of his food when I put the reptamin on it...he loves it.

[aquamentus_11]

hmmm maybe reptamin will help. btw, i think scylla may make a comeback. if not, i think i at least have my gf convinced on another ribbon. i levered her dislike of mites against her fear of another tank when i offered to compromise and get a ringneck instead. would rather get scylla back though

[EasternGirl]

Buy some reptamin and try it...works like a charm for Seeley. Now I don't know how safe it is for garters to have in large quantities on a regular basis...because it is turtle food. But I know Wayne uses it in the garter goulash in small amounts...and I use it in even smaller amounts. I just take one or two of the little sticks and crush them into powder and then sprinkle a little of that...enough to make a little flavoring...on top of the food and then mix it around.

Has she seen Scylla up close enough to know if you brought Scylla home and told her it was a ringneck? Does she know the difference?

[aquamentus_11]

hahaha she's held her as much as i have so that wouldn't work.

[EasternGirl]

Darn...:rolleyes: