Worms

[JodiLeigh]

Hi,

I have just bought some worms from the pet shop and when I got home and checked them (which I should have done in the shop DOH!) it looks like they are the red wrigglers! Which I read in the care sheet that they secrete a toxin that is harmful to snakes.

SO! My questions is do they secrete this toxin from anywhere on their body or is it just from a gland on a specific part of the body?

Because I don't want to waste them and was thinking if they secrete this toxin from just a gland on say the tail of the body or just one place can't I just wash it then cut off that part of the body and then feed it to my snake Manny?

[guidofatherof5]

I think it is secreted through the skin and not just one specific location.
I would say don't feed them. Not worth the risk.

[JodiLeigh]

I think it is secreted through the skin and not just one specific location.
I would say don't feed them. Not worth the risk.

Yeah that's what I thought.

I will just have to give them to my brother-in-law as he uses worms for fishing

I still have half a frozen pinkie in the freezer so will just feed him with that and get to a different pet shop soon and this time I'll check them in the shop!

Can reptiles other then garter snakes eat them? I would assume so as they wouldn't sell them in a reptile shop.

If they don't have any at this other pet shop then I can go to the bait shop which isn't too far.

I know I feed Manny pinkies but just wanted to give him a variety, you know? Also wanted to scent the pinkies with the worms because he still seems a little uninterested

Do you feed yours worms?

[angrygamer]

I think certain turtles eat can eat them, if I'm not mistaken.

I feed Glyph pinkies and the occasional worm.

[JodiLeigh]

I think certain turtles eat can eat them, if I'm not mistaken.

I feed Glyph pinkies and the occasional worm.

Does he/she take both with out any trouble?

And have you ever fed him/her fish?

[guidofatherof5]

A bait shop will probably be a better place to find the appropriate worm.
Buy night crawlers, not pan fish worms. Pan fish worms are redworms/red wriggles/compost worms-all bad for garters.
Most bait shops sell Canadian Night Crawlers.
If you are in the U.K. they may also be called lob worms or dew worms. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[EasternGirl]

Yes...I would think you would have better luck at a bait shop...don't know how it is in the U.K., but in the U.S. they don't sell them in pet stores. Yep...you want to look for nightcrawlers specifically. I'm not sure about the lob worms or dew worms...Chris or John could answer that....

[gregmonsta]

Fishing Worms and Bait - Lobworms | Worms Direct (http://www.wormsdirectuk.co.uk/acatalog/lobworms.html)

[angrygamer]

Does he/she take both with out any trouble?

And have you ever fed him/her fish?

I've had Glyph since the beginning of last October. He was eating rosy minnows and guppies in October and November.

I switched to worms and pinkies in the same week at the beginning of December. It took him a couple of hours to eat the pinky the first time, but since then I've had no trouble getting him to eat whole pinkies right away with tongs.

Worms took two or three times, I think. Also, I was cutting them up because they kept squirming out of the hemostats. Finally I just decided to try feeding them to him live by hand and he takes them with no trouble at all. I was a little worried about getting bit but they are long enough that my hand is a fair distance from his mouth, I just have to hold them by the other end!

I bought him from the pet store and I think all they fed him were goldfish...which you don't want to do. But that's what they recommended I feed him.

[guidofatherof5]

Good link Greg. Thanks.

[gregmonsta]

Good link Greg. Thanks. Their the guys I use when I suspect babies :P

[guidofatherof5]

I've had Glyph since the beginning of last October. He was eating rosy minnows and guppies in October and November.

I switched to worms and pinkies in the same week at the beginning of December. It took him a couple of hours to eat the pinky the first time, but since then I've had no trouble getting him to eat whole pinkies right away with tongs.

Worms took two or three times, I think. Also, I was cutting them up because they kept squirming out of the hemostats. Finally I just decided to try feeding them to him live by hand and he takes them with no trouble at all. I was a little worried about getting bit but they are long enough that my hand is a fair distance from his mouth, I just have to hold them by the other end!

I bought him from the pet store and I think all they fed him were goldfish...which you don't want to do. But that's what they recommended I feed him.

I think it was a good decision to phase the rosies out.

[angrygamer]

I think it was a good decision to phase the rosies out.

When I was first reading up on diet, the first couple places places I read said that they were fine. It wasn't until later on that I found out that they weren't good for Garters.

[JodiLeigh]

Thank you guys :)

So lob worms are safe?

The care sheet on this website also says not to use goldfish or rosy minnows.
That's bad that the pet shop advised feeding him goldfish!

[guidofatherof5]

Thank you guys :)

So lob worms are safe?

The care sheet on this website also says not to use goldfish or rosy minnows.
That's bad that the pet shop advised feeding him goldfish!

Very typical for that to happen.
I'm surprised they didn't recommend crickets or mealworms. :D

[EasternGirl]

Yep...the pet store that I often go to for supplies...substrate and such...told me to feed crickets. Whatever... Sorry, I should have also said Greg could tell you about worms over there ;).

[JodiLeigh]

Fishing Worms and Bait - Lobworms | Worms Direct (http://www.wormsdirectuk.co.uk/acatalog/lobworms.html)

So lob worms are safe to feed garters then?

[JodiLeigh]

So if I buy some frozen fillets of salmon or trout from an everyday supermarket is that safe and adequate for Manny?

I would also feed him pinkies and worms for variety and complete nutrition

Would I need to add a calcium supplement to the worms and frozen fish fillets or will the pinkies provide enough calcium even though I wouldn't feed him pinkies every time?

[guidofatherof5]

I don't buy any pre-frozen fish.
Only fresh fish.
Packaged, pre-frozen fish can cause problems. He's a link to a thread Wayne (Infernalis) started.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9914-note-concerning-pre-packaged-frozen-fish.html

[Light of Dae]

Don't buy pre-frozen fish. There are things they put in in for 'human consumption' that is not safe for or reptilian friends, I believe it's called 'trisodium phosphat' something like that, but either way it's bad. Buy only Fresh Fish.

I a while back went to the bait shop n they were out of 'dew worms' and had a container with what were labeled as 'red wigglers' But I opened it n looked, they were mis-labeled, I took one n squeezed it n pinched it with my nails, n there were no secretions so I used them, and they were fine. Just have to be VERY careful to be sure which they were. If in doubt, don't feed em.

[JodiLeigh]

I don't buy any pre-frozen fish.
Only fresh fish.
Packaged, pre-frozen fish can cause problems. He's a link to a thread Wayne (Infernalis) started.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9914-note-concerning-pre-packaged-frozen-fish.html

Ar ok thank you, I did wonder about preservatives and SOOOO glad I asked!

What fish do you feed yours? Or which fish WOULD you feed yours?

[JodiLeigh]

I a while back went to the bait shop n they were out of 'dew worms' and had a container with what were labeled as 'red wigglers' But I opened it n looked, they were mis-labeled, I took one n squeezed it n pinched it with my nails, n there were no secretions so I used them, and they were fine. Just have to be VERY careful to be sure which they were. If in doubt, don't feed em.

Yes I read that many shops mislabel them or just don't have a clue and just label them as 'worms'.

I will test this next time I'm in the shop, I noticed the secretion when I was looking at the worms I got and the red lines so I will be able to tell the difference (hopefully) but yes if I am unsure I wouldn't even bother buying them.

I don't know what I would do if Manny got ill because I fed him the wrong worms :(

Do you feed your snakes fish? and what fish do you use?

[JodiLeigh]

Oh and forgot to ask what about frozen silversides?
Do they have any preservatives or anything in them?

[guidofatherof5]

Oh and forgot to ask what about frozen silversides?
Do they have any preservatives or anything in them?

Good question. I don't use them so I will be interested to see some of the replies.
Since they aren't for human consumption I doubt it but really don't know.

[JodiLeigh]

I a while back went to the bait shop n they were out of 'dew worms' and had a container with what were labeled as 'red wigglers'

You would normally get dew worms? I take it they are safe? I'll Google them to see what they look like.

Are dew worms a similar price to night crawlers?

[guidofatherof5]

It may just be a regional name given to the worms.
I've read a few U.K. website and it seemed to me lob worms and dew worms are synonymous with Lumbricus terrestris.

Lob worm (Lumbricus terrestris) | OPAL (http://www.opalexplorenature.org/Lobworm)

[aquamentus_11]

Very typical for that to happen.
I'm surprised they didn't recommend crickets or mealworms. :D

yeah, the pet store where i buy guppies told me to use goldfish and try to feed their garters and ribbons crickets when they're small...i tried to tell them about thiaminase and i ended up having to back off because they were bordering on being offended: "we've never had any problems"

[guidofatherof5]

yeah, the pet store where i buy guppies told me to use goldfish and try to feed their garters and ribbons crickets when they're small...i tried to tell them about thiaminase and i ended up having to back off because they were bordering on being offended: "we've never had any problems"

Of course they didn't have any problems.
They don't keep animals long enough to see the affects of a poor/dangerous/wrong diet.

[aquamentus_11]

exactly my thought. the guppies there go for $3.50/ea though. too expensive for a tiny fish that's about to die. my girl took a large one tonight from my hemostats, btw, but had to spit it out because it was too big, wouldn't go after any more after that....we're making progress at least.

as far as worms go, nightcrawlers are like $3/dozen. gas stations carry them (the ones in MI that do have signs on the front window saying things like "Walt's Crawlers"), wal-mart, k-mart, sporting goods stores that carry outdoors stuff, etc. the tub i currently have in the fridge i actually bought with my pinkies from the pet store, so check again. maybe you can go back and exchange them. i'm going to try to find frozen silversides to augment my pinkies when I get her eating properly. i can't find any anywhere though, so i may have to order some.

[aquamentus_11]

Oh, just noticed that you're from Lancashire. i hope to God that you don't have wal-marts and k-marts there too. just look for the big, purplish pink ones. there's no way to mistake a nightcrawler for a red wiggler once you see them both.

[EasternGirl]

I feed my snakes fresh salmon, steel-head trout, and tilapia...but only fresh from the seafood counter at my local supermarket or from a seafood store. I buy small fillet pieces and freeze what I do not use and then keep it for several months. I also feed them nightcrawlers which I buy from a marine store and frozen/thawed pinkies which I order online in bulk. If you feed your snakes a varied diet of fish, worms, and pinkies, you should not need supplements. Some members do use frozen silversides...but I do not know which are safe to buy in the U.K....perhaps Chris, Greg, or John could tell you.

[gregmonsta]

Well, I would stick to getting fresh salmon/trout fillet - I use tesco's value salmon or trout fillet or the local fishmonger ... or trout that I catch myself. Always freeze the fish first to reduce potential parasite risks. If you're feeding worms, pinkies and fish you will need to supplement - the pinkies are not enough as they are themselves deficient in calcium. You can use the following supplements in the drinking water here in Britain - Medivet Reptasol Liquid Water Vitamin Supplement 50ml | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Medivet-Reptasol-Liquid-Water-Vitamin-Supplement-50ml-/160604729053?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Reptiles_Spiders_I nsects&hash=item2564c9aedd) and Exo Terra Calcimize Liquid Calcium Supplement 100ml | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Exo-Terra-Calcimize-Liquid-Calcium-Supplement-100ml-/150438977300?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Reptiles_Spiders_I nsects&hash=item2306dc9f14)

You can use an old 2 litre juice bottle. I would add one drop of reptasol and 20 drops of calcimise - I used to just keep this in my fridge when my wee collection was smaller.

[JodiLeigh]

Wow lots of good advice here, thank you guys!

When I next have some money I will buy some fresh trout or salmon fillets(freeze them to rid of parasites), some dew or lob worms and some of that vitamin supplement and calcium supplement. Oh and some more pinkies.

[EasternGirl]

Greg...my vet mentioned using a calcium supplement...we actually talked about supplements for quite a while. His take on it was that he thought they were a good idea but tricky because he worried about people giving too much of multivitamin supplements to reptiles and toxicity, and with calcium, he said exactly what you said...that the pinkies did not have enough calcium but that often with powder supplements the snakes would not take the supplements and with liquid supplements, it makes the water sour and the snakes don't drink the water. So, he told me just to make sure to feed a varied diet. But now I'm wondering...I haven't been able to have any luck getting my snakes to eat food with powder calcium on it. You put the liquid calcium and the multivitamin in the drinking water with no problem? Can you get those supplements in the U.S.?

[gregmonsta]

Greg...my vet mentioned using a calcium supplement...we actually talked about supplements for quite a while. His take on it was that he thought they were a good idea but tricky because he worried about people giving too much of multivitamin supplements to reptiles and toxicity, and with calcium, he said exactly what you said...that the pinkies did not have enough calcium but that often with powder supplements the snakes would not take the supplements and with liquid supplements, it makes the water sour and the snakes don't drink the water. So, he told me just to make sure to feed a varied diet. But now I'm wondering...I haven't been able to have any luck getting my snakes to eat food with powder calcium on it. You put the liquid calcium and the multivitamin in the drinking water with no problem? Can you get those supplements in the U.S.?

I certainly havenot had any problems getting my snakes to drink the water. The dosage I mentioned in my last post is equivalent to a quarter of the recommended dose so I am essentially just providing a trace amount of the vit/calcium combo considering that no snake drinks a whole 500ml in one go. My vet said that water soluble combinations like this were very safe as overdose/hypervitaminosis is impossible at such low solutions as I do.
The supplements I get are specifically to be used in the drinking water. If you cannot find a suitable American alternative formulated for reptiles you might find something similar developed for tropical bird keepers (although I would be cautious about this).

[EasternGirl]

Thanks Greg...I will try looking looking for those that you use. I would feel better giving them at least something. I'm sure my vet would agree that it is safe.

[EasternGirl]

I just ordered the Exo-terra Calcimize...is this the right stuff: Exo Terra Calcimize Reptile Drinkwater Conditioner | PetFoodDirect (http://www.petfooddirect.com/product/15895/Exo-Terra-Calcimize-Reptile-Drinkwater-Conditioner?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse)

Now...I just put 20 drops in a 2 liter bottle of water and keep it in the fridge and then use that for the snakes drinking water?

[gregmonsta]

I just ordered the Exo-terra Calcimize...is this the right stuff: Exo Terra Calcimize Reptile Drinkwater Conditioner | PetFoodDirect (http://www.petfooddirect.com/product/15895/Exo-Terra-Calcimize-Reptile-Drinkwater-Conditioner?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cse)

Now...I just put 20 drops in a 2 liter bottle of water and keep it in the fridge and then use that for the snakes drinking water?

Aye ;)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks Greg...I love it when Scottish men say "Aye"...;).

[chris-uk]

Thanks Greg...I love it when Scottish men say "Aye"...;).
What about when Yorkshire men say "ecky thump"?

[guidofatherof5]

Icky Thump (song) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icky_Thump_%28song%29)

[EasternGirl]

Somehow that just doesn't make me weak in the knees like "Aye" coming from a Scott...sorry Chris! Just something about a Scottish brogue I guess...Although I do like a British accent too ;).

[chris-uk]

Somehow that just doesn't make me weak in the knees like "Aye" coming from a Scott...sorry Chris! Just something about a Scottish brogue I guess...Although I do like a British accent too ;).
Exactly which "British accent"? Some of them really grate on me, Geordies being particularly annoying.
As long as you don't regard **** Van Dyke in Mary Poppins to be a British accent we will carry on getting on just fine. :)

[kibakiba]

My ex's accent was kind of annoying. Most others don't bother me as much though.

[EasternGirl]

Isn't it hysterical how you can't write the name **** without the forum blocking it? Ha ha...I'm trying to remember what he sounded like in Mary Poppins. What's a Geordie? I lived in Surrey...my ex is from Surrey...the guy that I lived with over there. His accent was nice...not too cockney...not too snobbish. He, however, was a bleedin' pratt.

[Light of Dae]

All my life people have asked me "where are you from?" or "where's your accent from?" lol I've been called, British, Aussie, German, New Yorkie, etc. Lol I never been any such places. My mom says I picked up a funny accent from a neighbor we had for a few months, their little girl had traveled with them all over the world growing up. I was only 3years old but it stuck with me. LOL It NEVER fails when meeting a new person they ask.... "Where are you from?" No one else in my family has an accent, it's just me.