Sub/species?!?!

[JodiLeigh]

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

SOOOO . . . .

I was looking into the different types of garter snakes there are and it's really confusing but I really want to be able to tell the different species and subspecies apart. I can't even figure out

So Thamnophis means Garter snake which is the genus?

And Sirtalis, Radix and Butleri is the species?

Sirtalis is what? Radix is plains? Butleri is butlers?

Marcianus is checkered but is that the species or subspecies and if it's the subspecies then what is the species? And why is Marcianus sometimes repeated after Thamnophis? Like Thamnophis cyrtopsis cyrtopsis (which is an eastern blacknecked garter snake . . . right?)

Does anyone know of any websites that would help me out please?

Also some pictures of snakes and their normal and Greek (I think it is) names would be a massive help!

[ConcinusMan]

Just keep in mind that "Thamnophis" is the "family" or genus, the second name is the species. If there is a third name, that would be subspecies. Even snakes with different third names are still the same species as long as the first two Latin names are the same. They're just morphologically and locality different from one another.

For example, an eastern garter, and an oregon red spotted are actually the same species. T. sirtalis. It's just that they are different "races" (subspecies) and found in different locations.;)

To confuse matters, there are sometimes different morphs among the same species or subspecies, such as "flame" (flames are a red morph of T.s. sirtalis or eastern garter found in Canada).

As far as pictures go, that might just confuse you even more. Because, for example, these are all T. sirtalis concinnus:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-P1kR2KilsZg/TbqjyxgZ4dI/AAAAAAAAQS4/Ukm7zfh4VAg/s1600/Red-spotted+Garter+Snake+%28Thamnophis+sirtalis+concin nus%29.jpg
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/165637xxxx_031_%28Large%29-med.jpg
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1iLluk3pneQJS_HS6Y9Bo-ZBwxiTJNkIWTE9V9jl23XAxRWZdecGR50Ib


This should help a little: Garter snake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garter_snake#Taxonomy)

[guidofatherof5]

Here is a current list of recognized Thamnophis:

1. Thamnophis angustirostris (Longnose Garter Snake)

2. Thamnophis atratus (Pacific Coast Aquatic Garter Snake)
T. a. atratus (Santa Cruz garter snake)
T. a. hydrophilus (Oregon garter snake)
T. a. zaxanthus (Diablo Range garter snake)

3. Thamnophis bogerti (Bogert's Garter Snake)

4. Thamnophis brachystoma (Short-Headed Garter Snake)

5. Thamnophis butleri (Butler's Garter Snake)

6. Thamnophis chrysocephalus (Golden-Headed Garter Snake)

7. Thamnophis conanti (Conant's Garter Snake)

8. Thamnophis couchii (Sierra Garter Snake)

9. Thamnophis cyrtopsis (Black-Necked Garter Snake)
T. c. collaris (Tropical blackneck garter snake)
T. c. cyrtopsis (Western blackneck garter snake)
T. c. ocellatus (Eastern blackneck garter snake)

10. Thamnophis elegans (Western Terrestial Garter Snake)
T. e. elegans (Mountain garter snake)
T. e. terrestris (Coast garter snake)
T. e. vagrans (Wandering garter snake)

11. Thamnophis eques (Mexican Garter Snake)
T. e. eques (Mexican garter snake)
T. e, carmenensis
T. e. cuitzeoensis
T. e. diluvialis
T. e. insperatus
T. e. obscurus
T. e. patzcuaroensis
T. e. scotti
T. e. megalops (Northern Mexican garter snake)
T. e. virgatenuis

12. Thamnophis errans (Mexican Wandering Garter Snake)

13. Thamnophis exsul (Exiled Garter Snake)

14. Thamnophis fulvus (Mesoamerican Highlands Garter Snake)

15. Thamnophis gigas (Giant Garter Snake)

16. Thamnophis godmani (Godman's Garter Snake)

17. Thamnophis hammondii (Two-Striped Garter Snake)

18. Thamnophis lineri (Liner's Garter Snake)

19. Thamnophis marcianus (Checkered Garter Snake)
T. m. bovallii
T. m. marcianus
T. m. praeocularis

20. Thamnophis melanogaster (Mexican Black-Bellied Garter Snake)
T. m. canescens (Gray blackbelly garter snake)
T. m. chihuahuaensis (Chihuahuan blackbelly garter snake)
T. m. linearis (Lined blackbelly garter snake)
T. m. melanogaster (Mexican blackbelly garter snake)

21. Thamnophis mendax (Tamaulipan Montane Garter Snake)

22. Thamnophis nigronuchalis (Southern Durango Spotted Garter Snake)

23. Thamnophis ordinoides (Northwestern Garter Snake)

24. Thamnophis postremus (Tepalcatepec Valley Garter Snake)

25. Thamnophis proximus (Western Ribbon Snake)
T. p. alpinus (Chiapas Highland ribbon snake)
T. p. diabolicus (Aridland ribbon snake)
T. p. orarius (Gulf coast ribbon snake)
T. p. proximus (Western ribbon snake)
T. p. rubrilineatus (Redstripe ribbon snake)
T. p. rutiloris (Mexican ribbon snake)

26. Thamnophis pulchrilatus (Yellow-Throated Garter Snake)

27. Thamnophis radix (Great Plains Garter Snake, Plains Garter Snake)

28. Thamnophis rossmani (Rossman's Garter Snake)

29. Thamnophis rufipunctatus (Narrow-Headed Garter Snake)

30. Thamnophis sauritus (Eastern Ribbon Snake)
T. s. nitae (Bluestripe ribbon snake)
T. s. sackenii (Peninsula ribbon snake)
T. s. sauritus (Eastern ribbon snake)
T. s. septentrionalis (Northern ribbon snake)

31. Thamnophis scalaris (Mexican Alpine Blotched Garter Snake, Longtail Alpine Garter Snake)

32. Thamnophis scaliger (Mesa Central Blotched Garter Snake, Short-tail Alpine Garter Snake)

33. Thamnophis sirtalis (Common Garter Snake)
T. s. annectens (Texas garter snake)
T. s. concinnus (Red-spotted garter snake)
T. s. dorsalis (New Mexico garter snake)
T. s. fitchi (Valley garter snake)
T. s. infernalis (California red-sided garter snake)
T. s. pallidulus (Maritime garter snake)
T. s. parietalis (Red-sided garter snake)
T. s. pickeringii (Puget Sound garter snake)
T. s. semifasciatus (Chicago garter snake)
T. s. similis (Blue-striped garter snake)
T. s. sirtalis (Eastern garter snake)
T. s. tetrataenia (San Francisco garter snake)

34. Thamnophis sumichrasti (Sumichrast's Garter Snake)

35. Thamnophis validus (Mexican Pacific Lowlands Garter Snake)
T. v. celaeno
T. v. isabelleae
T. v. thamnophisoides
T. v. validus

[JodiLeigh]

oooow thank you!

That is one mighty list!
I think I will take a section at a time if I ever do want to understand it properly.

I had put into google checkered garter and then plains garter; trying to figure out the difference in appearance and I thought I got it when this picture popped up and stumped me:
4019
The website says this is a Radix.

But then this picture:
4020
Is labeled as a checkered!?!?
They look almost exactly the same to me

And it's not just that one site, quite a few of the pictures are similar but I just can't see the difference

[guidofatherof5]

Some can look similar but the proof is in the scale count. That will include or exclude snakes and possible ID's.

[EasternGirl]

She needs the bible you guys...if you have the money for it...Amazon.com: Used and New: The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology (Animal Natural History Series) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0806128208/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1328139503&sr=1-1&condition=used)

[JodiLeigh]

Some can look similar but the proof is in the scale count. That will include or exclude snakes and possible ID's.

Ar ok

I wont ask HA HA I don't think my brain could take in any more information right now.

You've got some good videos on youtube, very helpful!

[JodiLeigh]

She needs the bible you guys...if you have the money for it...Amazon.com: Used and New: The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology (Animal Natural History Series) (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0806128208/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1328139503&sr=1-1&condition=used)

The bible?!?! oooow I am intrigued!
Definitely check that out!

Thank you =]

[EasternGirl]

Well...then looking at the list that you put up Steve...if a T. sirtalis is a common garter snake, and a T.s.sirtalis is an eastern garter snake...and the second name is the species and a third name indicates subspecies...then with an eastern garter, wouldn't the species be common garter and eastern would be the subspecies? I'm asking because I often hear people refer to eastern as species not subspecies. And another question...couldn't you technically breed any snake on the common garter snake list and it would not be cross hybridation or whatever you call it?

[guidofatherof5]

I think the problem is you are trying to mix common names and scientific names.
Mixing Taxonomy rules and common names might not be a good way to explain what you are trying to describe.
I hope I explained this well enough but don't feel I did.
Help anyone.