Mouse Meat and activity cycle

[aquamentus_11]

Just a few quick questions re: pinkies and garter activity cycles. I've only ever owned boas, so my experience with colubrids is extremely lacking.

Garters don't have pit organs, so I'm curious whether or not they prefer warm prey (strictly from a non-targeting, palate-preference standpoint). Their love of fish, worms and amphibians makes me think no. However, when I offered a thawed pinky piece to my 10"er the other day, she struck it, chewed for a split second then released. I know that she was eating them along with worms prior to coming to my place. As I've said in previous posts, she's probably still settling in, but the fact that she went for it then backed off made me wonder if I'm just presenting it incorrectly. I take them out of the freezer and drop them in a ziplock which I then place in hot water until the pieces thaw and warm a little. The pieces are warm-room temp when I offer them. Should they be warmer? I use a small pair of hemostats to offer food and slowly put it in front of her nose. If she doesn't go for it immediately, I back it off and make it move a bit in the foliage or wherever she is. Humidity and temps are fine, btw.

My next question is re: her activity cycle. I thought garters were supposed to be diurnal. Granted I'm not home very often during the day, but when I am, I never see her out. The only time I ever see her come out and cruise is around 6:30-7:30pm after the UVB light has turned off. Like I said, my temps and humidity are fine (72-86F daytime, 68-72F night, 40-65%). She's making me think that she's more crepuscular than anything. Also, she doesn't seem terrified of me (just conservatively distrustful) and I've never chased her to pick her up, so I don't think she's scared and hiding all day: her tank is right next to my desk and she still comes out when I'm there in the evening. When she's out, she just cruises around placidly, climbing and swimming and stopping to watch me once in awhile. Am I doing something wrong or is this normal? Maybe, being a northern species, she likes things to be cooler....though ambient T is usually hanging around the mid to upper 70's. I'll stay home all this weekend to see if she comes out mid-morning, too. Until then, any sage advice from the more experienced? She's a lot of fun otherwise; I just hope I'm not making things hard on her.

[gregmonsta]

Just a few quick questions re: pinkies and garter activity cycles. I've only ever owned boas, so my experience with colubrids is extremely lacking.

Garters don't have pit organs, so I'm curious whether or not they prefer warm prey (strictly from a non-targeting, palate-preference standpoint). Their love of fish, worms and amphibians makes me think no. However, when I offered a thawed pinky piece to my 10"er the other day, she struck it, chewed for a split second then released. I know that she was eating them along with worms prior to coming to my place. As I've said in previous posts, she's probably still settling in, but the fact that she went for it then backed off made me wonder if I'm just presenting it incorrectly. I take them out of the freezer and drop them in a ziplock which I then place in hot water until the pieces thaw and warm a little. The pieces are warm-room temp when I offer them. Should they be warmer? I use a small pair of hemostats to offer food and slowly put it in front of her nose. If she doesn't go for it immediately, I back it off and make it move a bit in the foliage or wherever she is. Humidity and temps are fine, btw.

My next question is re: her activity cycle. I thought garters were supposed to be diurnal. Granted I'm not home very often during the day, but when I am, I never see her out. The only time I ever see her come out and cruise is around 6:30-7:30pm after the UVB light has turned off. Like I said, my temps and humidity are fine (72-86F daytime, 68-72F night, 40-65%). She's making me think that she's more crepuscular than anything. Also, she doesn't seem terrified of me (just conservatively distrustful) and I've never chased her to pick her up, so I don't think she's scared and hiding all day: her tank is right next to my desk and she still comes out when I'm there in the evening. When she's out, she just cruises around placidly, climbing and swimming and stopping to watch me once in awhile. Am I doing something wrong or is this normal? Maybe, being a northern species, she likes things to be cooler....though ambient T is usually hanging around the mid to upper 70's. I'll stay home all this weekend to see if she comes out mid-morning, too. Until then, any sage advice from the more experienced? She's a lot of fun otherwise; I just hope I'm not making things hard on her.

I wold not offer pinkies any warmer than room temp. In fact I don't think temperature matters at all. It's more down to flavour, shape and size. I have snakes that simply don't want anything to do with pinkies if there is a choice. She's probably just not used to it as a food source without the worm scenting. Braining the pinky or putting a small cut in its belly can help.

If you're not seeing her until the UV is off then it might be worth thinking that it's too strong for her - what percentage is the UV and how far is it from the snake in the tank? Does the room she's in receive a lot of natural light?

[aquamentus_11]

I'm not offering whole pinkies yet, but I will try the scenting. I'll check the % when I get home, but the bulb is about 2' above the substrate. The tank never receives direct sunlight, but the room has windows so the lighting fluctuates throughout the day.

[Light of Dae]

Try mincing worms up n mixing them with pinky chunks in a shallow dish or lid with a little water. The way I do it is cut the pinky up while frozen, into bite size chunks(about the size of her head or little bigger) put it in the dish with little bit of luke warm water, then take out the worms n mince one or half of one up, like really finely chopped... mush really. Then do a few bite size pieces of worm and mix the in with the pinky mouse chunks that are already thawed by just sitting there while the worms are chopped. Then present the dish, if your snake it used to hemostats you could used them to move food around in the dish.

Doing this made it so easy to feed my little Radix, Babs. She'll eat anything I mix like that lol

On temperature note of food, I think they almost prefer it cool, seeing as their natural food (worms n frogs n slugs) are cool to the touch. Where as Boas (which you said you've owned, right?) are used hot prey. I used to thaw everything in a plastic bag in warm water but my girl didn't seem to enjoy it at all, never eating much. Now since giving her food that is on the cool side, she's a pig, she loves it!

[Light of Dae]

put it in the dish with little bit of luke warm water,

I should say here, I don't really worry about water temp here, I just use whatever is in the tap, It more likely then not, is quite cold water really. Just be sure it ain't hot water.

[aquamentus_11]

ok, great ideas. can't wait to get home and try them

[EasternGirl]

I have noticed that sometimes my garters do not seem to like the bright UVB light all that much. I try to leave it on for them for a few hours a day so that they get some of the benefits of it...but then I turn it off and just use a basking light...or a regular 40 watt or 60 watt light bulb..depending on what I want my temps to be...if I don't want it too warm for them, I use a 40 watt, if I want it a little warmer, I use a 60 watt and I just monitor the temps on the warm side of the tank...I make sure they stay between 82-86 degrees during the day...and around 78 at night...on the warm side...and around 75 during the day and between 68-71 at night on the cool side.

[infernalis]

I serve cold pinkies. (not frozen, just slightly chilly)

Garter snakes in the wild eat worms, fish and amphibians, when was the last time you ever touched a warm salamander, warm fish or warm worm?

It's far more natural for them to eat cold foods.

[EasternGirl]

I serve them cold too...thawed but not warmed at all.

[aquamentus_11]

I took her out after leaving her alone for a few days and I now think that I may have solved the riddle: that old familiar bluish haze is upon her. I'll wait and see if she normalizes after her shed.

Interestingly, I held up her food dish as I was holding her tonight and she actually b-lined for it. Didn't eat anything of course, but the fact that she thought about eating while being held and shedding was cool. I have a feeling she'll be a little hoglet post-shed.

[Light of Dae]

Interestingly, I held up her food dish as I was holding her tonight and she actually b-lined for it. Didn't eat anything of course, but the fact that she thought about eating while being held and shedding was cool. I have a feeling she'll be a little hoglet post-shed.

Mine eats any time regardless if she is blue or not, just offer food as normal. Some will eat around shedding time, some won't. Lol I like the 'little hoglet' lol that's cute.

[EasternGirl]

Right...Cee Cee would eat if she were in the middle of getting one of her injections and you offered her food! Cee Cee will always eat even if it's right before a shed...Hermes too. Seeley is the only one who won't eat before a shed. Cee Cee would eat while I was holding her...and I'm sure she would take food from my hand...I just wouldn't have much of a hand left when I was done...lol. My others will not eat when I am holding them. It is very cool if they will eat when you are holding them.

[aquamentus_11]

Well, I stirred her up this morning and took a look because I noticed some ragged flakes of skin on her last night. It looks like she has a few scrapes. I took a closer look and she decided that it was reason to paint my hands with her poop and thrash (something that she's never done). I held on gently though and she calmed down to her normal self pretty quickly. The lesions are clean and well-scabbed over without signs of infection and don't seem to bother her (she allowed me to probe around them and remove some of the old skin raised up around them). This is 100% my fault: I had that sharp piece of wood in there with her that Steve told me to take out and I did, but apparently too late. She wrapped around it as I lifted her out once earlier in the week and she must've gotten injured during that. I never saw any blood. Anyway, I was going to be a vet and am now a medical student, so I have a good handle on the situation, but I feel pretty stupid and negligent. No wonder she was hiding all the time; her stupid ogre of an owner hurts her. :mad:

I was wondering if this would affect her next shed at all. Small pieces are missing from this oldest layer so I'll have to watch.

[Light of Dae]

This is 100% my fault: I had that sharp piece of wood in there with her that Steve told me to take out and I did, but apparently too late. She wrapped around it as I lifted her out once earlier in the week and she must've gotten injured during that. I never saw any blood. Anyway, I was going to be a vet and am now a medical student, so I have a good handle on the situation, but I feel pretty stupid and negligent. No wonder she was hiding all the time; her stupid ogre of an owner hurts her. :mad:

I was wondering if this would affect her next shed at all. Small pieces are missing from this oldest layer so I'll have to watch.

Hey that's ok, at least your admitting you made a mistake, you're human, it's ok. You at lest know what to look for as far as signs of infection n all that jazz. As for her next shed I'd say when you see her eyes go blue, just start giving her a warm bath once a day or in a shed box once a day... Something like that to help it stay soft n moist, should help with her shed. I like the fact your honest about it, sign of a good ogre.. I mean owner :D (Don't mind me, I've got a very sarcastic soul, laughter makes everyone feel better)

[ConcinusMan]

It's not unusual for garters to be active at night or just for an early morning warm up and then again for an hour or three after dark, particularly if the temperatures are warm. During the warm summer days, garters in the wild tend to disappear after mid morning and come back out for the last couple of daylight hours. During very hot spells, they will usually become nocturnal. I've had albinos that avoid light altogether and only come out at night. Garters aren't strictly diurnal. In captivity, very cool nights (down to around 60 F or cooler throughout the tank) tends to increase their morning activity as they come out to bask and warm up. Once they've reached optimal temperature, and can maintain it while hiding, they will usually just hide unless they are very hungry and looking for food. Your snakes are being crupuscular or nocturnal simply because the temperatures at those times are warm enough for activity and darkness provides some security. I'm willing to bet that if the nights were colder, and daytime highs a bit lower, they would be more active during daylight hours.

Most UV bulbs put out much lower levels of UV than the sun does, and the UV only reaches about 18 inches from the bulb. I don't think your snake is hiding because of high UV levels. Garters don't actually need UV but I like to provide a little anyway unless they're albino. I think it has positive psychological effects on them, just like a sunny day does for a person.

As far as feeding goes, everyone's pretty much said it. Food should be neutral or cool to your touch. Sometimes they drop food items just because they don't like the mouth feel or texture. For example, I've had snakes that refuse to eat mice with hair and so will drop it. Those snakes will only eat mice that are naked. Try feeding pinkies while they are wet or dry, room temp or cooler, and see if your snake has a preference.

Most of my snakes will eat while opaque but will hide all the time during that stage and be very grouchy and easily spooked. Remember, if the eyes are cloudy, they are all but blind and therefore feeling vulnerable. After the eyes clear, but shed hasn't taken place yet, they will usually refuse food. A full belly can impede the shedding process.

[angrygamer]

A full belly can impede the shedding process.

How so?

[ConcinusMan]

By limiting movement/flexibility and by stretching the skin girth wise. Most snakes, when a shed is imminent, even if hungry, will wait until they shed, and then eat.

There's three times in the life of a snake when they are most vulnerable to attack. Right after eating a large meal, during the opaque phase when they can't see well, and while they are shedding. But a snake that has a large meal in it's belly and is shedding too, is a "sitting duck".

[Light of Dae]

After the eyes clear, but shed hasn't taken place yet, they will usually refuse food. A full belly can impede the shedding process.

lol My Babs don't know this, the last time she shed she had such a full belly because her feeding time just happened right after her eyes cleared up. She stuffed herself, basked for a few hours, then shed. But She's just one snake, every snake is different.

[ConcinusMan]

Sure, I'm speaking generally.

[aquamentus_11]

ok, great; i'll try the lower temps. her eyes were only slightly blue the other day, but were nice and clear yesterday, so maybe that's the case. thanks

[Light of Dae]

I can see your point though. It makes sense... Just my Fat little Radix is unaware of this fact. lol Heck I bet she'd eat if I offered food in the middle of her working her way outta her skin lol

[ConcinusMan]

ok, great; i'll try the lower temps. her eyes were only slightly blue the other day, but were nice and clear yesterday, so maybe that's the case. thanks

Should shed within a couple of days then. Sometimes the opaque phase is very cloudy or even gray-blue, sometimes it's just slightly cloudy. It varies. But if you saw cloudy eyes and now they're clear, you can bet a shed will follow very soon. Can't hurt to mist the tank to keep humidity up for the next few days.

[aquamentus_11]

She shed this morning without any problems and looks great. She still has no interest in food, though....

[EasternGirl]

I'm glad she shed without any problems! I was about to write that she may have some problems because of the wound...but, guess not! Like Dae said, don't beat yourself up too much...at least you are willing to admit that you made a mistake and you are learning from it...that is the important part. We have all made mistakes on here and I'm sure we will make more. We are all here to help each other and learn from one another. Just glad to have you on the forum with us!

[guidofatherof5]

She shed this morning without any problems and looks great. She still has no interest in food, though....

Good news. She'll probably start real soon. ;)

[aquamentus_11]

I hope so. I wonder why she ate the 2nd day here and never did again. She didn't get hurt until a few days after she stopped eating and she didn't start to shed until after that, so neither of those is responsible. I'm at an awkward place here because I'm not sure which will be best to get her to trust me: leaving her completely alone until she eats or making sure to handle her every other day. Normally, I wouldn't handle at all the first week I get a reptile, but everyone seems to think it's fine to do so with these guys. As frustrating as it will be, I think the best strategy is to wait for her to start coming out more so I don't have to disturb her hides to get to her. Since she never comes out (despite my efforts to cool things down at night and lower daytime highs), I can't get her used to handling without hunting in the cage for her and that doesn't foster feelings of security. I'd rather have an active snake over a tree boa any day, but at least if she was out on a perch all day I could get to her! Grrrrrrr

[EasternGirl]

It can be frustrating with garters sometimes because of their instinct to hide. But their curiosity always seems to get the better of them so try just putting your hand in the tank and letting her come out to you...let her get used to you being around. I have noticed that once my very skiddish easterns got used to my hands being in the tank...they stopped hiding when I reach in there. Chances are, if you put your hand in the tank and leave it in there for a bit, she will come out to check it out because of her natural curiosity. My easterns used to hide when I reached in the tank, now if I go in there to move things, or clean, they just go about their business...and they will even let me pet them...and I can reach in to get them without having to dig for them under the substrate because they don't hide all the time now.

[aquamentus_11]

haha yeah, when I change her water in the morning and come back with the fresh stuff, I usually see her little head poking out of one of her hides. it cracks me up. i'll try the hand in the tank trick

[EasternGirl]

Isn't it just the cutest thing when they poke their little heads out like that?

4035

[aquamentus_11]

ha great pic. tried the hand trick for about 30min without effect. at this point, i don't care if she comes out as long as she starts eating; she's got to be hungry.

[aquamentus_11]

i'm just going to leave her alone until she starts to cruise around looking for food.

[EasternGirl]

Well...do you think that maybe she isn't eating because she is being skiddish? How do you normally feed her? For my skiddish snakes...I put a paper towel down over the substrate and then I put a little plastic lid down with food on it and put their hide on top of the lid so they can eat inside the hide. You just have to watch that they don't drag the food out and go under the towel and into the substrate.

[aquamentus_11]

The one time she ate, I offered a piece of worm on hemostats and she scarfed it down then went and hid. The next time I tried, I went with pinky pieces and she struck, but then released them and hasn't been interested in any food ever since. I've been leaving the worm/mouse slurry in a little lid for her every day, but she never touches it. I've even seen her go right over it without so much as a sniff. I've tried leaving it right next to the entrances of her hides, but still nothing. I think if I put the hide over the food, I'll NEVER see her. I want her to learn that I = food time and goodness, but if it gets to the point where she absolutely has to eat something I'll definitely toss the food and lid under a hide for her. Right now, I think I'm just being impatient and she's still freaked out about me hurting her. What a disastrous mistake on my part...I hope it doesn't end in her never eating again.

[guidofatherof5]

The one time she ate, I offered a piece of worm on hemostats and she scarfed it down then went and hid. The next time I tried, I went with pinky pieces and she struck, but then released them and hasn't been interested in any food ever since. I've been leaving the worm/mouse slurry in a little lid for her every day, but she never touches it. I've even seen her go right over it without so much as a sniff. I've tried leaving it right next to the entrances of her hides, but still nothing. I think if I put the hide over the food, I'll NEVER see her. I want her to learn that I = food time and goodness, but if it gets to the point where she absolutely has to eat something I'll definitely toss the food and lid under a hide for her. Right now, I think I'm just being impatient and she's still freaked out about me hurting her. What a disastrous mistake on my part...I hope it doesn't end in her never eating again.


Any chance you can get some guppies?

1O36FMumumg

[EasternGirl]

I don't think you should worry so much. I have been giving my poor Cee Cee injections...so she now has to associate me with a lot of stress and pain...yet somehow, through it all...she, one of the most skiddish snakes, is still trusting me more and more. Garters are smart, don't get me wrong, but she may not be thinking.."hey, that is the guy that hurt me". She may not be associating you with that. She may just be scared in general and still adjusting. If it were me, but this is just my opinion, I would just be concerned with getting her to eat at this point and worry about building trust later...you will have plenty of time for that. I would go ahead and give her the food any way she will eat...again, this is just my opinion. But with my very skiddish wild caught garters...I had to feed them on dishes and let them adjust for a while before I could begin to work on feeding with hemostats...they were just too scared and would not have eaten. You need to be patient with her for a while and let her adjust...let her be skiddish and hide out for a while...she will come around, you can't rush it or force it...she has to do it on her terms :). If anyone disagrees with me...please say so...

[aquamentus_11]

oh definitely. i've been waiting to let her loose on some guppies for awhile, but hoped that I could get her to eat pinkies before I got her stuck on fish. that would be a fun study break tomorrow though. i'll head to the pet store and grab some.

[guidofatherof5]

Put the pinky parts in with the guppies.
That way she might grab some mice parts instead.

[aquamentus_11]

i will do so. she's out right now hanging out on her plants. if she doesn't need UV to convert vitamin d, i might just skip the UV bulb and go with a CHE. she only comes out when the tank is in the low 70's and dark. I tried low 70's with light and she still hid. she might just be a night owl. the light from the windows should be enough to keep her circadian rhythm in line.

[aquamentus_11]

I don't think you should worry so much.

I agree. Unfortunately, I always jump to the worst conclusion first and then rule things out as I go. Thanks for all the advice and patience.

How warm do garters need to be to effectively digest? I don't want to cause problems in that department if I start to drop temps for her.

[EasternGirl]

I completely understand your worrying...I am totally neurotic when it comes to my snakes...so I get it. As far as the UV light goes, there is research that has found benefits in the use of UVB light in garters. Some people believe they need it, other don't. I have a UVB flourescent strip light for my easterns...I try to put it on for a couple hours a day. They don't seem to like the bright light all that much...but I try to put it on for a little while so that they can get the benefits from it...if there are any to be had. As far as heat goes, I think it depends on the species, and on the particular snake and what that snake prefers...but most people recommend a warm side in the low to mid 80's and a cool side in the low to mid 70's...with a drop in night temps. Some people recommend heat at night, and others do not. I keep my warm side around 82-84 and my cool side around 75 during the day for my eastern garters. I do use heat at night in the winter...letting it drop to around 78 on the warm side and to around 70 on the cool side at night. For my albino checkered...I keep it between 82 and 86 on the warm side and around 75 on the cool side during the day and at night...he likes his temps warmer. Keep in mind that garters can handle and need a night temp drop...as long as the temp doesn't go below about 66...she should be fine at night. Some members don't use any heat at night...as long as your house doesn't get too cold...it's not always needed.

[aquamentus_11]

I don't use heat at night, but have a little heat pad under one corner just in case I need to turn it on. I've been letting it get down to 67-70 at night because I literally have never seen her out and about unless it's dark and 70-71F. It's 69 on the cool side and she was just out climbing around on that side, soaking in her bowl and watching me for the past hour or so. I've never heard of a snake liking temps this low, so I assume it's more of a lighting thing and just switched over to a 60W CHE. We'll see what happens tomorrow.

[EasternGirl]

Now wait...don't red-sided garters originate from Canada? Because that would make sense that they like it cold...I know that checkereds apparently like it warm...I'm assuming they originate from a warmer area, but I do not know where. Easterns...like it somewhat cooler...because they are used to cooler temps.

[EasternGirl]

Yep...just looked it up checkereds...T.marcianus...native to southern U.S. and Mexico...red-sided garters are native to northern U.S. and Canada....I think they can be found in other states but not usually in the south...so they would be used to cold temperatures. I'm sure members on here could tell you more about it, but the Narcisse Snake Dens in Canada are famous for red-sided garters.

[aquamentus_11]

Oh yeah, I read about those. Hmmm I'll have to post another thread re: this tomorrow. Good thinkin'

[guidofatherof5]

Yep...just looked it up checkereds...T.marcianus...native to southern U.S. and Mexico...red-sided garters are native to northern U.S. and Canada....I think they can be found in other states but not usually in the south...so they would be used to cold temperatures. I'm sure members on here could tell you more about it, but the Narcisse Snake Dens in Canada are famous for red-sided garters.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/marcianus_rangemap.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tspmap.jpg

[EasternGirl]

I'm thinking that probably explains it if it isn't just her being skiddish right now...try covering the warm side of the tank with a towel so that she has some cover to feel more secure and see if she goes over there. I just read this snake book and was reading about how insecure snakes get scared seeing everything going on outside of the tank...and to cover the tank with a towel to make it more secure for them...of course you want to leave air circulation. I always cover part of the tank for my eastern male to eat...he won't eat if he can see people....you may want to try that for feeding her too. I also cover part of my other tanks...just to make the snakes feel more secure. I know other members on here have red-sided garters...start a new thread tomorrow and ask about temp preferences for their snakes.

[aquamentus_11]

Any chance you can get some guppies?

1O36FMumumg

tried this and all she does is look at the lid wanting out. she evens rubs her nose right through the fish without caring. i tried just putting them in her dish in shallow water and she stopped, looked like she was going to go for it, then backed off.

[guidofatherof5]

Try putting the guppies in the small round container(this is important as you want the moving snake to come in contact with the fish as often as possible) with just enough water on so they have to flop/swim. Insert the snake and cover the container with a cloth. Leave it alone for a few hours.
have found that many time the snake will have eaten most if not all the fish. Put some worm chunks in there also.
Just an idea. Best of luck.

[ConcinusMan]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/marcianus_rangemap.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tspmap.jpg

Hey, that last map has some significance as to the debate going on here: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/9850-my-new-garter-s.html

Notice the range of concinnus? (now known to be outdated) Well, inside that range the lines between subspecies blurs. In the northernmost part along the washington coast, snakes actually are apparent intergrades between concinnus and pickeringi. In the southern part, along the So. Oregon coast and CA coast, it's difficult to tell if the snakes are concinnus, or fitchi. The farther into CA you go, the more they take on infernalis traits. It seems that the only ones that are definitely distinquished as concinnus are located in the Willamette Valley. Everywhere else, it gets "blurry". DNA mapping has already concluded that pickeringi and concinnus are all but identical on the genetic level. I guess that's why I'm not surprised that concinnus also have a locality specific blue morph.

And here's the really interesting part. SF garters are more closely related to east coast sirtalis' than they are to concinnus/fitchi/pickeringi

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it seems that west coast fitchi,concinus,pickeringi are really just one happy sirtalis "household".