Clawed frog= clawed treat?

[aquamentus_11]

So, amphibians are usually a no-no, but would the occasional clawed frog be a good treat for a garter? No toxins that I'm aware of, small, non-violent = ok?

[guidofatherof5]

My concern would be for parasites.

[EasternGirl]

You're talking about a live frog? I don't recommend live prey....but see what other members say...

[RedSidedSPR]

I used to want to do that but even tho it's captive bred and everything it being a frog means it's probably gonna have parasites of some kind like steve said.

[aquamentus_11]

ok, thanks. i won't be giving them then. on a food-related note, i have 10" female on the way that's eating pinky and worm pieces. how much and how often should i feed her? the care sheet doesn't mention quantity or frequency specifically

[RedSidedSPR]

Every day, or every other day, but small pieces and meals is how I do it.

[Stefan-A]

I recall there being a potential issue with toxic skin secretions.

[EasternGirl]

How old is she? I don't know if I would do every day. You want to be careful not to overfeed babies because that can be dangerous...but they also need enough food to grow. Steve recently gave me good advice for feeding my six month old albino...he said every two or three days...and like Jesse said small meals. I give my albino about a half a pinky's worth of food every three days...if I feed fish or worms, I just make it equal to a half a pinky. I chop the food up to make it small enough for him to eat...then I watch for the bulge in his stomach to go down to see that he has digested the food...it usually takes about two days...when the bulge is gone, you know you can feed again. If the bulge is gone in two days..go ahead and feed in two days...depends on what you have fed to how long it takes to digest.

[GarterGuy17]

Yea i'm feeding every two days because jade digests very very fast , she starring at me right now , I think she wants food :( Well just see what are your snakes eating habits just water her after a day or so when she eats and see if the bulge is gone.

[EasternGirl]

I think he meant to say watch her for a day or so after she eats and see if the bulge is gone...;)

[Light of Dae]

I am lucky with my Radix baby She'll eat out of a dish until she is full then leave whatever leftover. She is approximately 15" or 16" long. About every 3-4days I mix Worm chunks n chopped Pinkies. I alternate between a ratio of 70%worms 30%pinkie then next feeding would be 3days, Next feeding 30%worms 70%pinkie next feeding would be 4days.

I'd ask who ever you are getting her off of how much has she been eating, you can go from there. Oh and if she is used to 'tong' feeding or eating out of a dish or in a separate tank etc. Mind you some adjust quite fast, others take time.

Worms n fish digest faster then pinkies. You'll be able to see a 'thickening' of her eh.. waist line lol and you'll notice her scales are stretched apart. When she's hungry her body will be slimmer and her scales will be closer together. Plus once they now food comes from you.. they will give you 'the look' lol You'll know.

[guidofatherof5]

Plus once they now food comes from you.. they will give you 'the look' lol You'll know.

"The look". I like that. :D

[Light of Dae]

Lol well it's true, they do give you 'the look' If we had 'monkey thought translators' to put on them they'd do 'the look' and the translator would say... "HUNGRY!" ... "STEVE!" and instead of gummy bears it would be "WORMS!" or "PINKIE MOUSE"

... Lol Gotta watch Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs! Love the monkey.

[EasternGirl]

I tried to feed Hermes some worm pieces last night and he got all freaked out because they were wiggling at him! Being captive bred he is not used to his food being alive. He has the complete opposite problem of my wild caught easterns who like their food alive and wiggling and the challenge became getting them to eat food that was not alive.

[kibakiba]

Thats how my babies were! I tried cut up worms, but they were still wiggling a little bit and they acted like the worms were coyotes or something! Haha.

[EasternGirl]

I cut the worms into itty bitty pieces tonight and Hermes ate them ;).

[snakehill]

My concern would be for parasites. My concern would be for the frog!!! :p

[kibakiba]

I doubt your radix would care too much for the frog, when all they see is the equivilent of a perfect oven roasted turkey.

[ConcinusMan]

I recall there being a potential issue with toxic skin secretions.

Me too. I think clawed frogs have skin toxins. You're not supposed to handle them because of it.

[aquamentus_11]

That's too bad. I really enjoy trying to mimic their natural state (as much as a glass enclosure allows...) and would like to feed her an amphibian once in awhile. I won't do endemic toads or frogs because they're some of my favorite animals and for the parasite problem. I have never been a fan of clawed frogs though, and I had hoped that they were usually CB and safe to eat. I hear frog legs from a grocery store work well. True?

[guidofatherof5]

True but.....
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/9511-store-bought-frozen-frog-legs.html

[aquamentus_11]

yeah....not ok

[ConcinusMan]

So, amphibians are usually a no-no

Freezing them at very low temperatures (below 15 F) for a couple of weeks kills most common parasites. It's not the amphibians that's the problem, it's the parasites they carry. However, it's best to avoid amphibians that are known to be toxic such as newts. While some populations of wild garters are immune to the poison, others are not.


That's too bad. I really enjoy trying to mimic their natural state (as much as a glass enclosure allows...) and would like to feed her an amphibian once in awhile. I won't do endemic toads or frogs because they're some of my favorite animals and for the parasite problem. I have never been a fan of clawed frogs though, and I had hoped that they were usually CB and safe to eat. I hear frog legs from a grocery store work well. True?

Frozen thawed frog legs meant for human consumption are OK for captive garters IMO but there's no compelling reason to use them. Your snakes can be very healthy and happy eating just rodents, or rodents and fish fillet / whole silversides. While most people think that mimicing their natural environment and feeding them their natural wild food makes sense, you have to remember that captivity is not the wild. You have to do things a bit differently in captivity to keep them healthy. A parasite infection in captivity can quickly get out of hand and kill your snake while in the wild, it only serves to ensure that only the strongest snakes survive to breed and even those that do manage to breed don't live to be a ripe old age. You have to consider that the wild lifespan is much less than their potential longitivity. As much as 85 percent of snakes in the wild don't live long enough to breed. 85 percent loss would be unacceptable in captivity.

Life is hard for them out there. Losses are staggering, (they make up for it by having large numbers of offspring, most of which are doomed to die young) so I ask, why would you want to mimic that?

[EasternGirl]

I agree which is why I tend to keep my snakes a bit warmer than they would be in the wild...not too warm, but while some people argue that they do not need heat...and no offense is meant to anyone here...I tend to disagree. I understand that they can survive pretty harsh temperatures in the wild...but if I am taking care of a garter, I am trying to give it a better quality of life than it would have in the wild...therefore I am going to try to give it optimal temps, not temps in which it can survive. Just my opinion.

[ConcinusMan]

OK. My point is, that goes for diet, enclosure environment, etc. too. I mean, sure, you can find wild snakes in bacteria infested mud, water, etc. and those snakes are surely carrying parasites but we don't want that for our captives. Not if you want them to be healthy and live long. It irritates me that people try to create a dirty muddy wetland in their tank and feed them parasite infested food just because that's what they have in the wild.:rolleyes:

Trust me, just stay away from live fish, amphibians, etc. and feed them rodents, night crawlers, frozen thawed fish and they'll do just fine. They don't need live fish or amphibians. They only eat that in the wild because that is what is available.

Think about it. If I was an alien and came down to catch a human living in abject poverty that is drinking contaminated water and eating only rice, is that what I should give them in captivity?... well, you get the point I hope.

[aquamentus_11]

Think about it. If I was an alien and came down to catch a human living in abject poverty that is drinking contaminated water and eating only rice, is that what I should give them in captivity?... well, you get the point I hope.

That depends; are you a flight of the navigator alien or more of a battlefield earth alien?

I agree though; I only wanted to try the frog thing as a special treat. I can't find silversides anywhere, btw. I'd rather not have to use calcium on filets. It's not a big deal, but she's fussy enough as it is.

[EasternGirl]

Remind me...are you feeding worms and pinkies as well as fish?

[aquamentus_11]

yes, but she's only eaten worms so far. she has tried with the other stuff so we'll work on it.

[EasternGirl]

She'll get there...it just takes a little time :).

[ConcinusMan]

Well, I do occasionally, although rarely, feed small WC bullfrogs to my snakes. However, I freeze them at around 0 degrees F for a month or two. That should kill most common parasites they might be carrying. If you choose to use frogs as an occasional treat, the freezing at very low temperatures gives an added bit of safety against the most common parasites.

As far as fillet goes, Tilapia actually has a signficant amount of calcium. Not as much as whole fish, but tilapia fillet has more calcium than many other fish.

[aquamentus_11]

As far as fillet goes, Tilapia actually has a signficant amount of calcium. Not as much as whole fish, but tilapia fillet has more calcium than many other fish.

good to know. i like our frogs, so i wouldn't feel right feeding them. i have always disliked the claweds though since my older sister had one in her aquarium when we were growing up. something about the beady eyes, bottom-dwelling lifestyle and bloated body. it would've given me a depraved satisfaction to feed them to my snake. sadly, poison wins.

[ConcinusMan]

Are you sure you're not talking about dwarf frogs? What I mean is that there are two very similar looking frogs sometimes available in pet stores. They both live a totally aquatic existence and look the same, but the clawed frogs (Xenopus laevis) get much larger. Not to mention they are also banned from many states (WA, OR, CA, and perhaps others) as an invasive species.

[aquamentus_11]

might be the dwarf ones. she didn't have it for very long so it never got very big. i know the dwarf has webs on the front legs while the clawed doesn't. i don't remember whether it had them or not. yeah, i looked it up and AZ and a few others are on that list. MI isn't though and that's where I grew up so who knows.

[aquamentus_11]

just looked at pics: was definitely the clawed. the dwarfs look kinda cool

[ConcinusMan]

Normally we can get the little dwarf ones for about 5 bucks in pet stores here and in WA. They thrive in little planted aquariums and don't need heat or oxygenation. Basically same kind of setup a beta would live in.

Some pet stores in WA still have the clawed frogs even though they're not supposed to. They just call them something else and get away with it.

[aquamentus_11]

That would be a cool little set up: a little ecosystem in a small beta bowl. The clawed frogs just look like they have the awareness of a turnip.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, they had a little planted tank with dwarf frogs in it on my doctor's desk a few years back. He said that two of the frogs had been there for 5 years. It was just a 1 gallon tank with no pump, heat, or anything. Just gravel, water, and plants. They look just like clawed frogs, but were tiny.

[kimbosaur]

1 gallon is probably not the best idea for a pair of those unless the tank is very well established (ie. heavily planted with healthy, established plants, and/or very frequent water changes). There would be no room for error. I think the water quality would be very difficult to maintain and they're pretty sensitive to poor water quality (from personal experience). I think a 5 gallon would be the best size.

That's why these stupid little "EcoAquariums" I see in toy stores drive me crazy. It's not only cruel, it sends a completely off message to little kids. And on top of that it's a complete rip off at $30!!!:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ClMkmdW9oLU/SwL0wC21V_I/AAAAAAAAAhs/tnxezwuEY0I/s320/frogcube.jpg
(http://wildcreationsfrogblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/new-blog-on-block.html)

[snakehill]

Thirty dollars for that???! :eek:

[kimbosaur]

Oops, apparently the one above is $22.99. This one is $29.99:
http://www.wildcreations.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/d953f5b66539aab7d7f6e574459ec5e5.jpg
Haha, quite the upgrade huh?

Here's the site: Wild Creations (http://www.wildcreations.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=35&Itemid=122)

[aquamentus_11]

i had more of a lily/wort plant in mind....and my idea was much less neon

[kimbosaur]

I wasnt implying thats what you had in mind!! Sorry if thats how it came across. It was more of a 'while we're on this topic' type thing.

If you're going to do it on a small scale, I would suggest at least 2.5 gallons, well planted with easy growers, and have the plants thriving first, OR plan on frequent water changes. :)

[aquamentus_11]

no no that's not what i meant at all. i was agreeing with you guys while making fun of that product. many people get easily offended in forums, but i'm not one.

[ConcinusMan]

That's pretty much the kind of tank I was talking about. Note that these won't work for clawed frogs, only the dwarf frogs.

Also, the tank I saw had plenty of well established live plants in it. They were careful to not overfeed them, and they had a bottom feeding fish to clean up. The tank was quite "green" (had algae on the glass) but the water was clear and they never had to change it.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah that sounds cool