A note concerning pre-packaged frozen fish

[infernalis]

Anyone who has been here a while may recall me having no less than two incidents regarding the loss of snakes after eating (supposedly) tainted fish from the freezer section of Wal Mart.

The purpose of this thread is to alert members that it's not an issue with Wal Mart, nor any other store.

Pre-packaged frozen fish is all treated with a sodium compound preservative to keep it looking nice in the freezer.

Sodium tripolyphosphate although harmless to humans is NOT normally consumed by garter snakes.

Since I have made the decision to feed only certified chemical free organic fish to my snakes, I have not has a single loss due to feeding them cut up fish.

Look closely on the back of your fish fillet packaging, those Tilapia/salmon fillets are most likely treated with this chemical.

In my opinion / experience.. this stuff is far more deadly than Thiaminase.

http://www.thamnophis.co/caresheet/STPP.gif

[PINJOHN]

Well spotted Wayne i think you have just prevented a lot of heartache.

[Stefan-A]

Sodium tripolyphosphate
BEST INC., LIMITED (http://www.bestcool.com.hk/Newsview.asp?id=116)

Sodium chloride
BEST INC., LIMITED (http://www.bestcool.com.hk/Newsview.asp?id=202)


It's a bit less toxic (to rats), than table salt and the amount in the fish is unknown.

[infernalis]

Without a specific study being done, one cannot be certain about retention and expulsion of this commonly used preservative in reptiles.

I decided to look into this when I read the packaging on some frozen fish I saw at the market. Once I saw this listed on the packaging of some salmon, I then looked at the packages of Tilapia and salmon at Wal Mart and sure enough it was listed right on the back.

Since the rainbow trout I have been buying are fresh butchered, the fillets do not contain any preservatives at all, there were only two seafood items sold there that are certified chemical free organic, the rainbow trout I buy for my garter snakes, and the raw whole shrimp I buy for my monitor lizard.

[guidofatherof5]

Good info. to know.
That probably explains the trouble I had years back with frozen fish.

[EasternGirl]

I only buy fresh fish from the seafood counter. My motto is...if I wouldn't eat it, I won't feed it to my snakes...and I am very picky about seafood. Having had an experience with food poisoning from seafood myself...I am very careful in what I buy. I buy it fresh and I smell it...if it smells off in anyway...I take it back.

[infernalis]

For the longest time it was usually recommended on this site to buy Tilapia and salmon from the frozen feeds section of the supermarket.

The death is not pretty, the snakes convulse, flip over, bite themselves in the side, etc..

The symptoms look just look dehydration.

[chris-uk]

It may be dehydration Wayne. If the sodium causes an electrolyte imbalance and can't be excreted the chances are that it draws out water.
Good tip, I've not used anything other than fish counter fish yet. Now I'll avoid prepacked fish and frozen fish.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

With all of the questionable keepers out there that will buy the cheapest stuff they can find, I think you'd see a LOT more issues with this if it WAS what was killing off snakes in batches. I personally still think it's got a lot to do with fish simply being contaminated with stuff as they are grown... seeing as our planet's shot to hell, I don't really buy into the whole "organic" movement as there realistically are no places untouched by human scum anymore. I've moved away from feeding fish filets because a whole prey diet is certainly a lot more ideal than filets with artificial supplements and it's not cost prohibitive anyways.

[infernalis]

With all of the questionable keepers out there that will buy the cheapest stuff they can find, I think you'd see a LOT more issues with this if it WAS what was killing off snakes in batches. I personally still think it's got a lot to do with fish simply being contaminated with stuff as they are grown... seeing as our planet's shot to hell, I don't really buy into the whole "organic" movement as there realistically are no places untouched by human scum anymore. I've moved away from feeding fish filets because a whole prey diet is certainly a lot more ideal than filets with artificial supplements and it's not cost prohibitive anyways.

How many of those "questionable" keepers pay attention.

We have had plenty of those "oh my snake just died" threads, "I don't know why"...

I agree with the human scum statement, but I'm quite sure there are MANY unreported deaths, and many "I don't know what happened" deaths.

Further, if the preservatives are prayed on with nozzles at the packaging plant, a dribble, a sputter or a clogged up spray nozzle suddenly clearing could (and will) deposit higher concentrations of the chemical on the fish being packaged.

One calibration at the plant goes out of spec, and suddenly a whole batch or just a few inches of a batch of fish gets a larger dose of detergent than the rest of the line.

Heck, after reading the material safety data sheets Stefan posted up, I'm not sure I would want to eat that fish myself.

When many of us feed babies, we tend to chop up fish, how many of those "failure to thrive" babies actually fell victim to the chemical preservatives in the fish??

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Failure to thrive happens regardless of what kinds of food items offered... No matter what kind of keeper you are, you are going to notice if a couple of your snakes die overnight after eating some fish. And you are right, if I were you I wouldn't eat the fish either... In fact avoid any meat at a grocery store! Meats don't belong on a conveyor belt under a series of sprayers. Like I said, if one is really worried about it, I would just avoid feeding filets... Kind of like thiaminase! There are plenty of feeding options that are out there.

[mikem]

yea, just checked my tilapia...it's there. well, looks like i have some fillets for me now! heh...

would there be an issue in purchasing fresh and then freezing it yourself? i'd imagine not, but thought i'd throw it out there..

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I DO fish for my own trout... there are currently quite a few in my freezer!

[infernalis]

yea, just checked my tilapia...it's there. well, looks like i have some fillets for me now! heh...

would there be an issue in purchasing fresh and then freezing it yourself? i'd imagine not, but thought i'd throw it out there..

I buy fresh and then cut up and freeze it.

http://www.thamnophis.co/feeding/trout.jpg

[Alicia_kay_47]

This is so upsetting. I love my snake, Eden. No pet owner wants to kill their pet, we want what's best, but quite frankly, not all of us all teaming in bait shops where we can easily get worms, or mice. (Mine is too small to eat mice anyhow.) So when the one bait shop near me says they're out of Earth worms( ridiculous, right? I know, wtf? ) I turn to Tilapia. It's in my freezer, I'm going to make it for dinner tonight, and I was planning to give some to Eden. But your revelation describing the horrible death I'd be condemning him to...make's me feel like a bad person for not driving 18 miles to the nearest earthworm breeder. That's scarey. However, Wal-Mart , you say? They're an evil conglomerate who gets their fare from seedy places anyways. So, I'll try my non-Wal-mart Tilapia an cross my fingers until I can get him his real food.

[EasternGirl]

I also buy fresh fish and freeze it, Mike.

[chris-uk]

This is so upsetting. I love my snake, Eden. No pet owner wants to kill their pet, we want what's best, but quite frankly, not all of us all teaming in bait shops where we can easily get worms, or mice. (Mine is too small to eat mice anyhow.) So when the one bait shop near me says they're out of Earth worms( ridiculous, right? I know, wtf? ) I turn to Tilapia. It's in my freezer, I'm going to make it for dinner tonight, and I was planning to give some to Eden. But your revelation describing the horrible death I'd be condemning him to...make's me feel like a bad person for not driving 18 miles to the nearest earthworm breeder. That's scarey. However, Wal-Mart , you say? They're an evil conglomerate who gets their fare from seedy places anyways. So, I'll try my non-Wal-mart Tilapia an cross my fingers until I can get him his real food.

I think for an emergency "bait shop out of worms" feed you'll be absolutely fine with the tilapia from the freezer. You will be extremely unlikely to have a batch in your freezer that has, through a production line failure, been given an instantly lethal dose of preservatives. Over a longer period there is more scope for toxicity to build up, but that won't happen if you generally feed worms.
By the way, do you supplement the worms? Arguably not necessary for some species that specialise in feeding on worms, but best practice seems to be to supplement a worm-only diet with vitamin and calcium.

[ConcinusMan]

I buy fresh and then cut up and freeze it.

http://www.thamnophis.co/feeding/trout.jpg

The Tilapia I buy says for the ingredients "Tilapia fillet, water". It also says, "all natural, no preservatives" If I "buy fresh" the only difference is the cost. If they don't sell it fresh in one day, they end up vacuum sealing and freezing it and I can then buy it much cheaper in the freezer under the Kroger brand name.

The store is Fred Meyer (which, outside of the Northwest, is called Kroger's) I've never had any issues with their fish. It is farmed and imported from SE Asia.

Checking the label for salt and additives is a given. Tilapia or not.:cool:


It may be dehydration Wayne. If the sodium causes an electrolyte imbalance and can't be excreted the chances are that it draws out water.

Which is why excessive sodium, such as added salt, causes rapid kidney failure in snakes. They simply aren't equipped to expell excess salt like mammal kidneys can because they excrete solid urates, not liquid urine. Note that tilapia has sodium naturally, (because fish need to balance sodium too, obviously) but it doesn't appear to be enough to harm the snakes.

[Alicia_kay_47]

No, I don't but I am going to buy some this week. (Supplements) And I will be expanding his diet/feeding times. Thanks for the advi, plus, I noticed my fish packaging did not contain any info on the preservative content.....Either it has none, or it doesn't say.

[EasternGirl]

Your best bet would be to try to buy fresh fish fillet when you can then. If you want some recommendations on supplements, we can give them to you.

[ConcinusMan]

I also buy fresh fish and freeze it, Mike.

That's no guarantee. I can buy farmed Steelhead "fresh" but they add artificial color to make the meat pink so it mimics salmon.:cool: Even "fresh" fish can be treated with harmful substances before you buy it. However, according to FDA regulations, they must make that fact public but they don't have to make it obvious and easy to find.


No, I don't but I am going to buy some this week. (Supplements) And I will be expanding his diet/feeding times. Thanks for the advi, plus, I noticed my fish packaging did not contain any info on the preservative content.....Either it has none, or it doesn't say.

They must put it in the ingredients label. That's the law. If it says anything but fish fillet and water in the ingredients, don't buy it.

[Mommy2many]

This is so upsetting. I love my snake, Eden. No pet owner wants to kill their pet, we want what's best, but quite frankly, not all of us all teaming in bait shops where we can easily get worms, or mice. (Mine is too small to eat mice anyhow.) So when the one bait shop near me says they're out of Earth worms( ridiculous, right? I know, wtf? ) I turn to Tilapia. It's in my freezer, I'm going to make it for dinner tonight, and I was planning to give some to Eden. But your revelation describing the horrible death I'd be condemning him to...make's me feel like a bad person for not driving 18 miles to the nearest earthworm breeder. That's scarey. However, Wal-Mart , you say? They're an evil conglomerate who gets their fare from seedy places anyways. So, I'll try my non-Wal-mart Tilapia an cross my fingers until I can get him his real food.

I feed my snakes with worms bought from Walmart. All year until I can go hunt them myself. I'd say worms are safer at Walmart than the fish. I only buy fresh fish from my supermarket and either use it right away or freeze it myself. (Then I usually forget about it, find it months later after already buying more fish) :)

[kimbosaur]

Another thing to pay attention to when buying "fresh" fish is that it's sometimes "previously frozen," and not actually fresh. The salmon fillets I bought at the seafood counter in the supermarket were exactly that.

[EasternGirl]

Right...but to respond to both Richard and Kimberly...I always check and make sure the seafood I buy does not have color added and has not been previously frozen. Both very good points. At my store, at the seafood counter, they have little signs next to the fish...the signs tell you if it has color added or if it has been previously frozen...it also says it on the label they put on the fish when you buy it. I also ask before selecting any. If the seafood store or the seafood counter where you buy your seafood does not have signs telling you these things...ask before purchasing.

[Stefan-A]

That's no guarantee. I can buy farmed Steelhead "fresh" but they add artificial color to make the meat pink so it mimics salmon.:cool:
The substance is generally the same substance wild fish would get through their diet. It's harmless.

[EasternGirl]

Well that's good to know...it gives me more options for buying salmon because a lot of the salmon has coloring added to it to give it a pink/red color.

[chris-uk]

Another thing to pay attention to when buying "fresh" fish is that it's sometimes "previously frozen," and not actually fresh. The salmon fillets I bought at the seafood counter in the supermarket were exactly that.

Whilst re-freezing previously frozen food is generally not advised, if it's fish that was previously frozen and is being sold as "fresh" fish in a shop, the fish will have been defrosted using a well-controlled method which allows it to be safely re-frozen. The thawing method leaves the previously forzen fish in the same condition as fresh fish.

[mike k]

If only I'd read this thread 8 months ago. I've kept a lot of species of snakes the last 20 yrs. The first pet snake my mom let me have was garter snake in the 4th grade. I didn't have much luck with that wild caught, pet store bought red sided, and I haven't had a garter since then.

Until last summer, when I took on the challenge. We raise 2 box turtles and a tree frog, along with 14 other colubrids, and I added three cb baby red sided garters. The babies were a lot smaller than I expected. I thought rosies would be too big, so guess what?? - I pulled some frozen tilapia from Walmart out of the back of the freezer and shaved off a few slices. I was estatic when they chowed the strips down. Woohoo, I've got them started, I thought.

The next morning...2 were dead and one was on the way out, at one point doing slow death twirls. As a first time garter snake owner, I thought it could have been anything - housing, temperature, travel stress, mysterious chemical in the house, what it ate, and any other possibility.

I searched the internet and by lunch I'd dug deep enough to realize it was the tilapia. There were so many husbandry pages out there that never mentioned this danger. I couldn't believe it. A simple, basic thing that should be easy to prevent. Sites all said to feed strips of fish. Now that I've done a lot more research, it seems the best thing to tell a newbie is to not feed any fish unless you've seen it swimming before it got frozen.

Mid afternoon a great thing happened. The red sided looked normal. No more slow twirling, it recognized my finger a few inches away and reacted. He drank. I might have got on my knees and looked up to the sky. A few days later he ate few live rosies out of his peanut butter jar lid/water dish. I have a theory why he survived the poisoning.

Today, 8 months later, he ate his first live pinky! Scented with frozen/thawed rosies. I've been paranoid feeding him rosies exclusively, he's not too interested in worms.

All prospective garter owners need to be aware of this issue with frozen fish.

[ConcinusMan]

The substance is generally the same substance wild fish would get through their diet. It's harmless.

I figured it probably was harmless. However, after feeding snakes heavily on that steelhead, I had two snakes develop tremors. One died, the other eventually recovered. Don't know if it was mercury, coloring, or what, but I quit using just to be safe.

[ConcinusMan]

Whilst re-freezing previously frozen food is generally not advised, if it's fish that was previously frozen and is being sold as "fresh" fish in a shop, the fish will have been defrosted using a well-controlled method which allows it to be safely re-frozen. The thawing method leaves the previously forzen fish in the same condition as fresh fish.

This is true. Most "fresh" fish was frozen during transport. However, I can get locally caught fresh steelhead and salmon in the Northwest. It was merely put on ice before reaching market. It's so loaded with mercury and PCB's (all WC salmon and steelhead is, with Alaskan salmon being the exception) I wouldn't use it anyway. That brings up a point about catching it yourself. Doesn't mean it isn't loaded with contaminants. Most WC fish is these days. Farmed fish is significantly lower in those contaminants. (PCB's, mercury) Tilapia is the cleanest as far as that goes, since tilapia eat only plant matter.

[infernalis]

Since I have last posted in this thread, I have dug deeper and asked questions, A veterinarian whom I spoke with was highly interested in this as renal failure could very easily be attributed to the consumption of phosphates.

I say "Could" because until now, no one ever thought much about it.

When Chomper's uric acid levels soared off the charts, the vet asked me what I was feeding him, I said "Inverts" mostly frozen raw shrimp. She asked me to look at the package it came in, and sure enough there it was.. Sodium Tripolyphosphate.

Then I looked at my packaged fish, there it is again, so I went to the market and just started reading bag after bag of frozen seafoods, they all have it.

The trout that I started buying is farm raised locally, and the market I buy it at has a sign posted that clearly states "Farm fresh, certified chemical / preservative free organic rainbow trout"

Sudden snake deaths ceased once I began feeding the trout fillet.

[guidofatherof5]

Good update Wayne. Thanks.

[EasternGirl]

So now I'm confused...Stefan said that the coloring added to fish is safe and Richard is saying it isn't. I buy my fish from the seafood counter at my supermarket. I always make sure it is fresh, and not previously frozen. But my snakes really love salmon and it is hard to find salmon that does not have coloring added to it. We don't really have any shops around here that sell organic fish. So...should I not buy the salmon with the coloring added to it then? I should just buy tilapia or something like that?

[infernalis]

So now I'm confused...Stefan said that the coloring added to fish is safe and Richard is saying it isn't. I buy my fish from the seafood counter at my supermarket. I always make sure it is fresh, and not previously frozen. But my snakes really love salmon and it is hard to find salmon that does not have coloring added to it. We don't really have any shops around here that sell organic fish. So...should I not buy the salmon with the coloring added to it then? I should just buy tilapia or something like that?

You misunderstood.

The colouring is not what is dangerous, not that I know of. It's the phosphate.

If you can get Phosphate free fish, then you should be OK.

[Stefan-A]

The colouring is not what is dangerous, not that I know of. It's the phosphate.

If you can get Phosphate free fish, then you should be OK.
I think the dangerous part would be the sodium, not the phosphate. Or maybe not.

[EasternGirl]

But the fresh fish...the kind that has not been previously frozen should not contain sodium phosphate right?

[ConcinusMan]

So now I'm confused...Stefan said that the coloring added to fish is safe and Richard is saying it isn't.

I didn't say it wasn't safe. I just didn't know at all so when I saw that it was labeled "color added" I simply avoided it out of precaution.

Well that sucks about the darn chemicals in your fish Wayne. Still, I don't think that's any reason to condemn any one particular type of fish. Luckily I can buy fresh or frozen tilapia, salmon, steelhead, etc and nothing has beed added (except the steelhead has harmless coloring). I've never seen any sodium phosphates on any labels and certainly haven't had any deaths from preservatives that I know of. I just have to watch out for certain species due to their tendency to contain mercury and PCB's. For that reason, tilapia is the "cleanest". Just have to be certain no phosphates or sodium has been added. I'll say it again, most fish does have a significant amount of sodium naturally. I don't think that's what's causing a problem. Added sodium and certainly phosphates or any preservative is highly suspect. probably wouldn't hurt a mammal one bit, but to a bird or reptile, could be deadly as cyanide and cause rapid renal failure. Reptile / bird kidneys just don't work the same way as ours. They expel solid concentrated urates, not liquid urine. They can't handle excessive sodium and other chemicals that our kidneys expel easily and without harm. Giving them that stuff would be a similar outcome to a human drinking a half gallon of antifreeze.:cool: Rapid renal failure.

[ConcinusMan]

But the fresh fish...the kind that has not been previously frozen should not contain sodium phosphate right?

Make sure all fish you buy is just that. All natural. Fish and nothing added except perhaps water. Check the package labels on frozen fish or ask a supervisor about the "fresh" fish they sell. Like I said, my vacuum sealed tilapa for the ingredients says "tilapia fillet, water" and that's it. I've certainly had no issues with it even during times when I rely heavily on just the fish until I could afford mice and such.

Well I'm certainly glad that the mystery of the sudden death due to walmart tilapia mystery has been solved. You gotta check those labels. See what comes after "INGREDIENTS:" if it sounds "fishy" (pun intended) or you can't pronounce it, don't feed it to your snakes.:cool:

[infernalis]

To clarify Richard, it's not condemning any certain fish other than the products treated with rubbish.

Reptiles large and small seem very sensative to chemicals.

I have also switched dog foods, seems most canned dog food has sodium tripolyphosphate listed on the can.

Luckily, "Gravy Train" (cheap) has none in it.

[ConcinusMan]

OK, and just to clarify, I'll say again that if you're going to feed your snakes fillet, tilapia is the "cleanest" as far as PCB's and heavy metals go. That's because it's freshwater farm raised, and the fish is an herbivore. It also has a significant amount of calcium even without bones and is relatively low in fat. Salmon is OK for occasional use, but is high in fat and if you use anything but Alaskan pink salmon, than the PCB's or heavy metal content is significant enough to cause harm if used too often.

Virtually all fish on the market is contaminated with varying amounts of mercury and / or PCB's. This is a concern not only for the snakes, but anyone or anything that eats salmon. Eating too much of it, too often doesn't give your body time to eliminate the mercury. Eventually it builds up in your system to toxic levels. It's safe to eat. Just not a lot and not too often.

That's one of the reasons that tilapia has become so popular in recent years. Not only does it not deplete wild fish populations, but it's virtually free of contamination. It's safe to eat a lot of it often.

This of course is all independent of any preservative concerns.

[EasternGirl]

I thought that tuna was the fish to worry about with mercury...I didn't know it was such a worry with salmon...good to know though considering I eat a lot of it in my sushi and have been buying a lot of it for my snakes. I guess I should cut back on it myself, and I will start buying more tilapia for the snakes instead of salmon.

[ConcinusMan]

Any carnivorous fish on the planet builds up mercury in it's tissues. It's caused by decades of burning fossil fuels, mainly coal. The higher up the food chain they are, the worse it gets. It's also worse in some areas than others.

Western salmon has PCB's to worry about too. CA salmon are virtually inedible. Northwest salmon are a little better, and Alaskan is the cleanest. Farmed salmon of any kind is cleaner than wild, but still contains mercury and / or PCB's.

mercury content in micrograms: (sampling done from 1990 to 2010) Median values. (values can be higher or lower depending mainly on the source location)

Farmed tilapia 0.004

Freshwater trout 0.025

Canned light tuna 0.078

Tuna steak or canned albacore 0.360

Fresh/Frozen salmon (species / region not specified) 0.190

It's really best avoid eating any fish that has anything but zeros in the first two places after the decimal.:cool:

Keep in mind that your body eliminates mercury slowly. A little wont hurt you. We all have some in our bodies. it's when intake exceeds elimination rate that you run the risk of building it up to toxic levels.




Sushi, no thanks. I'll pass on ingesting nematodes and tape worms / eggs.

[Magnarock the 2nd]

I have some pre-packaged Tilapia that contains: Carbon Monoxide (to preserve natural color). Would it be safe to feed?

[infernalis]

Carbon monoxide??

That's what suicidal people suck out of car tailpipes to end it all.

[Stefan-A]

Carbon monoxide??

That's what suicidal people suck out of car tailpipes to end it all.
Because inhaling it hinders the blood's ability to transport oxygen. It's a gas and eating something that has come in contact with it is perfectly harmless.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Carbon monoxide??

That's what suicidal people suck out of car tailpipes to end it all.
Lmao!

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for the info, Wayne.

[infernalis]

Thanks for the info, Wayne.

Ignore me.. Stefan is right.


Carbon monoxide (CO) has been used for improving the color of muscle foods. In the current study, we compared the postmortem treatment of tilapia fillets with 100% CO and euthanasia of live tilapia with CO for their ability to stabilize the color of white and red muscle of tilapia fillets. Both postmortem CO treatment and CO euthanasia were effective in increasing the redness (a* value) and lightness (L* value) of tilapia white and red muscle. Fillets obtained from CO-euthanized tilapia showed significantly higher a* and L* values during 1 mo of frozen storage at -20 degrees C and subsequent thawing and storage at 4 degrees C for 18 d. The amount of CO present in the red and white muscles decreased during the 18 d of storage at 4 degrees C. There was no significant difference in the pH, drip, or thaw loss of CO-treated tilapia fillets compared to the untreated fillets.

The only difference between Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide is an oxygen atom.

We feed mice euthanized with Carbon Dioxide to our snakes every day.

[EasternGirl]

Well, I meant thank you for all the info on the mercury content in fish...it was very helpful. I am going to start buying fresh tilapia and trout for my snakes from now on. It was also useful info for me personally...I always wonder about the mercury levels in fish that I eat and give to my family...now I know the levels in the different kinds of fish...so it was very helpful.

[ConcinusMan]

Because inhaling it hinders the blood's ability to transport oxygen. It's a gas and eating something that has come in contact with it is perfectly harmless.

What Stefan said. I'm sure that it's just carbon monoxide gas in the package placed there to displace oxygen. That shouldn't be a problem at all.


We feed mice euthanized with Carbon Dioxide to our snakes every day.

So, essentially they've been suffocated to death. Seems to me like the Co2 method would also ensure that the blood and tissues of the rodents will be very low in oxygen. Good for keeping them fresh too I suppose.


Well, I meant thank you for all the info on the mercury content in fish...it was very helpful. I am going to start buying fresh tilapia and trout for my snakes from now on. It was also useful info for me personally...I always wonder about the mercury levels in fish that I eat and give to my family...now I know the levels in the different kinds of fish...so it was very helpful.

There are several sources on the internet for you to look up mercury content. Results will vary, but the general consensus is that farmed tilapia is probably the cleanest fish you can find at any market. It helps that the fish is an herbivore so it doesn't prey on other creatures containing mercury. Keep in mind that trout mercury content can be quite high too. Depends on where the fish come from, and to a lesser degree, the species. Chances are, if you're catching it in some pond or lake anywhere near a heavily industrialized part of the country, it's going to be high in mercury. Better to use farmed steelhead or rainbow trout from the market.

[stevenrudge]

Over the years l've just about tried every fish going,the best diet l've come up with is this,l buy fresh Scottish rainbow trout(Greg will like that bit)then l cut up the whole fish from just behind the head making cutlets all the way down the fish,then cut the cutlets in half at the spine so each strip of fish contains bone skin and fins,then depending on the snakes l'm feeding l feed the strips or if needed l can cut them to whatever size l need,If l need to l then put the fish on a plate and freeze, so that l can just take the frozen fish strips as needed.
This is the controversial bit,l use socked fish pellets(where the protein is fish)very small pellets for neonate babys moving up to larger pellets as they grow,and for adult snakes l use a complete dog kibble,again well socked in fish water.
l started to do this with the problem of finding fish small enough for the neonates,with fish cut up not having enough nutritional value l found the vitamin and mineral content in some fish pellets very good for garters and water snakes.
l get very good growth rates and its a good adult breeding and maintainace diet.

[Natrix]

Hi! Steven, Are we talking the type of green fish pellets that you would use for Koi and other pond fish ?

[stevenrudge]

Hi! Steven, Are we talking the type of green fish pellets that you would use for Koi and other pond fish ?l use the King British or Omega fish pellets,as long as the protein is from fish then their fine

[gregmonsta]

I followed this on the other forum. As far as finding the right size of fish, I think I've managed to crack things up here http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/10185-trout-fry.html . I'll be buying suitable sizes for my adult snakes at the end of the month and fish at all sizes are available to me from what the owner said.
The fish pellets are an interesting one. The fact that they are based on fish protein is a good thing. How long have you been using them?
The dog kibble is something I definitely would not consider. Much like catfood I feel it suffers from the bias towards being a dog specific blend. I had negative experience of catfood in the past and could envisage similar problems with dogfood.
I remember shops selling 'garter grub' bag in the day. It would be nice to find out how it was formulated.

[stevenrudge]

I followed this on the other forum. As far as finding the right size of fish, I think I've managed to crack things up here http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/10185-trout-fry.html . I'll be buying suitable sizes for my adult snakes at the end of the month and fish at all sizes are available to me from what the owner said.
The fish pellets are an interesting one. The fact that they are based on fish protein is a good thing. How long have you been using them?
The dog kibble is something I definitely would not consider. Much like catfood I feel it suffers from the bias towards being a dog specific blend. I had negative experience of catfood in the past and could envisage similar problems with dogfood.
I remember shops selling 'garter grub' bag in the day. It would be nice to find out how it was formulated.l've used this for about 20 years,l only use dog kibble because l cannot find a fish pellet big enough,but l agree with the cat food,garter grub had minced up rodents and chicks in it

[gregmonsta]

I just remembered where I'd seen trout pellets recommended before :D - Jon Coote's care-book in the T-rex series from 1993 (I believe he was also behind garter grub).

[Invisible Snake]

Hey does anyone know why T-rex discontinued garter grub?

[stevenrudge]

I just remembered where I'd seen trout pellets recommended before :D - Jon Coote's care-book in the T-rex series from 1993 (I believe he was also behind garter grub).yes he was with Luke Yomans,he then sold the wrights to T-rex,it was Jon and Luke who l bought my first San-Frans From-they where outstanding San- Fran's much bigger then what you see nowadays,l paid £500.quid back then about a £1000.00 in todays money

[d_virginiana]

That is interesting... I've never heard of the fish pellets before. I have easy access to lots of fresh whole food so I've never had to worry about my snakes not getting enough nutrition from what they're eating.

I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do for fish once I move my snakes this summer. We fed the older one almost nothing but fish for over 10 years before I found this forum and realized they could eat a lot of different things. He is in a mouse-eating phase right now, but he will randomly hunger-strike for fish, so I guess I've got to figure something out before I move :cool: I'm considering buying a large quantity of minnows from the local seller who we've bought fish from for the past twenty years and shrink-wrap/freezing them since I'm pretty sure they're safe. It'd just be for Houdini, as my younger one doesn't seem to care for fish and I would rather her have a primarily pinkie/worm diet.

[harpercat]

I completely agree with Marnie here. I will only buy fresh fish and would never feed my snakes anything I wouldn't happily eat myself. As a secondary precaution, my cat is always prepared to be the official food taster and he is VERY fussy! LOL

[EasternGirl]

I bought fresh farm-raised tilapia for my snakes the other day...since it has been recommended as having the least amount of mercury and sodium, etc. Unfortunately, my snakes do not seem to like it as much as they like their salmon. They just love salmon. I really want them to eat the tilapia because I feel better feeding that to them. Don't know what to do. I guess I will see if I can find some trout...I believe that was lower in mercury than salmon, right? I'm going to keep trying the tilapia though...

[mb90078]

Mine aren't crazy about tilapia either, but will eat it when scented with other fish (in my case, usually silversides).

[ConcinusMan]

If you can get farmed rainbow trout or steelhead, give that a try. Sometimes it just takes a while for them to come around and eat tilapia. Mine didn't seem to like it at first either and I had to mix it with silversides at first. It helps if you get the tilapia in vacuum sealed packaging, thaw it in the packaging and it's own juices, and don't rinse it before you offer it to them.

[EasternGirl]

I buy it fresh at the seafood counter...it doesn't come in any packaging. But I will look for some rainbow trout...or steelhead...I did find some of that before, but I haven't been able to find any recently. I don't know much about silversides...where can I buy safe silversides? I have often thought of trying them. I do see smelt at the seafood counter and know that some people use that...smelt is safe right? Any guidelines for buying that?

[d_virginiana]

You can buy pre-packaged silversides at a lot of petstores or have them delivered. I've never done it, but I've seen them at our local PetSmart.

[EasternGirl]

I can try Petsmart. I think I got some from a local pet store around here a couple of years ago...but I didn't trust them at all...didn't like the look of them once I got them home and thawed. I think I saw people mention safe brands on here before...are there safe brands that I should look for?

[ConcinusMan]

I get them at Petco, but they aren't cheap. These are the best ones I've seen. San Francisco Bay Brand® Sally's Frozen Silversides™ Tropical Fish Food - Marine Food - Featured Products - PetSmart (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11271607)

If they don't have those, they also usually carry these: Frozen Fish Food for Aquarium Fish: Ocean Nutrition Silverside Frozen Food (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16851&cmpid=03csegpl&ref=6111&subref=AA&CAWELAID=525421141&cagpspn=pla)

I try to avoid the latter because they're vacuum sealed dry and they are supplemented. They tend to dry out or freezer burn easily. They don't look or smell as fresh as the Sally's, which are packed in water. If you get the Ocean Nutrition ones, make sure the vacuum seal is still in tact before buying, and after you open them, freeze them in water. They'll keep better.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks...something I might try with my snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

I've never met a garter that didn't devour them immediately with great enthusiasm.;)

[snakeygirl]

I'm new to this, & feeding a wild-caught Western Ribbonsnake who is thriving. She has mostly eaten small crappie from the bait shop, to avoid thiaminase. She'll also occasionally take scented pinkies but rarely unscented ones. I'm aware of the risk of parasites from live fish...should I encourage pinkies more, or what?

[kerensa]

How many of those "questionable" keepers pay attention.

We have had plenty of those "oh my snake just died" threads, "I don't know why"...

I agree with the human scum statement, but I'm quite sure there are MANY unreported deaths, and many "I don't know what happened" deaths.

Further, if the preservatives are prayed on with nozzles at the packaging plant, a dribble, a sputter or a clogged up spray nozzle suddenly clearing could (and will) deposit higher concentrations of the chemical on the fish being packaged.

One calibration at the plant goes out of spec, and suddenly a whole batch or just a few inches of a batch of fish gets a larger dose of detergent than the rest of the line.

Heck, after reading the material safety data sheets Stefan posted up, I'm not sure I would want to eat that fish myself.

When many of us feed babies, we tend to chop up fish, how many of those "failure to thrive" babies actually fell victim to the chemical preservatives in the fish??


I used to manage a pet store and I obviously got in plenty of reptiles in the beginning. After all I adore them, why wouldn't I carry them? I switched to stocking large quantities of gold fish and hamsters and pushing them. the reason they are easy, and most people will come in saying "my son wants an iguana? isn't that a lizard?" and leave with the hamster and be fine, the son may not be thrilled, but he isn't likely to be the one buying the food and not caring if its healthy. I had tons of people who came in to replace reptiles. (we were the closest place for a 4 hour drive to buy reptiles at the time) and tell me that their iguana (they were the rage at the time) had died, they didn't know why. "It had been doing so well and lived a really long time. oh at least a year." I quickly decided that since for every owner that cared and actually did even minimal research, I saw over a hundred who didn't, that the average person shouldn't be trusted with anything more then a feeder goldfish- and then that only because its gonna die within a couple years anyway (they've horrible genetics)

so yeah I can easily believe there are a lot people feeding their snakes whatever comes to hand, even if that looks like obvious poison to us.

anyone here is much more likely to avoid something that *might* hurt their precious pets, then say the budget conscious mother of three buying cheap food for a snake she never really wanted in the house anyway...

I try to see the point of view of the parents etc. but really I still feel in the end that a gold fish is the most they should be trusted with, and that a hamster (horrible little monsters) is an acceptable substitute if it looks like the kid in question will give a crap and wants something to handle. (although a hamster might cure that fast enough)

[Sonya610]

I only buy fish at the counter but virtually all of it is frozen and then thawed and sold as fresh. Does anyone know if the "fresh pre-frozen" counter fish also contains this? Or only fish that was packaged for long term freezing in the frozen foods section? I backed off fish a while ago and stuck with pinkies, just reintroduced a bit of tilapia the other night.

[guidofatherof5]

I live in Iowa and the only way I'm getting any fresh, never frozen fish is to go catch it myself.
I'm hoping the tilapia I purchase is as close to fresh as I can get. I'm not sure any of use really know what we are getting when we buy fish.
I think that tilapia offer a lower risk of problems then some of the other fish. Since I switched to tilapia only(unless I catch some bluegill) I have had zero problems with my snakes(fingers crossed)

[Steveo]

Steve, most commercial tilapia is farmed so it may be fairly fresh.

[Sonya610]

I live in Iowa and the only way I'm getting any fresh, never frozen fish is to go catch it myself.
I'm hoping the tilapia I purchase is as close to fresh as I can get.

Aside from the preservative problem, "fresh frozen" fish is much safer if it will be eaten raw. Those industrial freezers kill all of the parasites (which is why most sushi is pre-frozen for safety). I would watch where it comes from too, I saw frog legs from CHINA at our seafood counter the other day, I have to remember to read the small print and double check where the fish is coming from. I wish companies had to list the source of the ingredients, it scares me to think food products from China are added to foods labeled as manufactured elsewhere.

[xStatic]

Well now I'm really worried. I was advised to feed my garter tilapia but never told not to use frozen fillets... She literally just ate a meal of packaged tilapia fillets from Costco. Should she not be fed these? If I have to go out and buy fresh, never frozen, tilapia every week then I would rather just continue feeding pinkies and worms... I don't understand why I was encouraged to feed fish at all of there is such a great danger? Some advice would be helpful...

Thank you

[guidofatherof5]

I would say don't feed it any more. Fresh is what you should be using. Sorry for any misunderstanding or failure to define what to use.

[xStatic]

I would say don't feed it any more. Fresh is what you should be using. Sorry for any misunderstanding or failure to define what to use.

Thank you for your help. Hopefully my post doesn't sound too rude. I'm just becoming stressed because I've read many garter snake care sheets and am trying my best to insure my snake is healthy but I am constantly making mistakes. Garter snakes are much different animals than other genres of snakes and I'm finding out my experience with these other reptiles hardly applies to the care of garters. I just want to make sure my animals are healthy

[Sonya610]

If I have to go out and buy fresh, never frozen, tilapia every week then I would rather just continue feeding pinkies and worms...

Understand that freezing is not the problem, the chemical added to some (or most) frozen fish so it stays fresher looking is the problem. I just bought some fresh/frozen Tilapia and cut it up and threw it in my freezer, I am not worried about freezing it. I am worried that it was treated with Sodium Tripolyphosphate though, that is listed as a neuro-toxin and is limited in most countries (but not the US).

I just called my grocery store and got the name of their supplier, some company called Rain Forest Aquaculture that farms tilapia in Costa Rica and ships it to the US. I am going to call their Florida office tomorrow to ask if they are using that chemical (I kind of suspect they probably are, it makes thawed fish look fresh and pretty). I also got the name of the Trout supplier which is based in Idaho and maybe they aren't using it.

[xStatic]

I understood the added chemical was causing the problem but it doesn't seem worth it to me to risk feeding any pre-packaged fish if there's a risk of the fish being treated with harmful substances. From my understanding my snake can get full nutrition from eating only mice and worms. I can see the need to feed fish if snakes refuse to eat mice. Are silversides safe from these chemicals? Can I buy silversides at petsmart? My snake seemed to like the fish and accepted it immediately, so I would be willing to feed silversides if I knew they were safe. If not I will probably just be avoiding fish in the future

[ProXimuS]

San Francisco Bay Brand® Sally's Frozen Silversides™ Tropical Fish Food - Marine Food - Featured Products - PetSmart (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11271607)
^This is what I feed mine. The ingredients say: Fish, water. I've been feeding them for about 2 months(as long as I've had him)and have had no trouble. I know other members(not sure who) feed these same brand as well, also with no issues...To my knowledge. My snake, personally, loves them:D


Off subject....But I've gotta know, do you like Static-X? Is that where you got your name from?:cool::D

[xStatic]

San Francisco Bay Brand® Sally's Frozen Silversides™ Tropical Fish Food - Marine Food - Featured Products - PetSmart (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11271607)
^This is what I feed mine. The ingredients say: Fish, water. I've been feeding them for about 2 months(as long as I've had him)and have had no trouble. I know other members(not sure who) feed these same brand as well, also with no issues...To my knowledge. My snake, personally, loves them:D


Off subject....But I've gotta know, do you like Static-X? Is that where you got your name from?:cool::D

Thanks! I will pick up a package tonight. :) and sorry that's not my reasoning, it's just a username I've been using for many years haha originally it was xStaticStacia because I wanted my name in it but eventually I just shortened it to xStatic

[Sonya610]

Thanks! I will pick up a package tonight. :) and sorry that's not my reasoning, it's just a username I've been using for many years haha originally it was xStaticStacia because I wanted my name in it but eventually I just shortened it to xStatic

I bought those when the babies were small, but then stopped feeding them after I heard the scary fish causing seizures stories (which makes sense since it is a suspected neuro-toxin "Sodium tripolyphosphate, or STPP, is a suspected neurotoxin according to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health’s (NIOSH) Registry of Toxic Effects of Chemical Substances.). I believe those silversides say China on the label right? If I am remembering correctly they did.

I am calling both suppliers tomorrow to ask (I hope the ClearSprings Trout Farm doesn't use it).

Maybe this was already posted but here is an interesting flier on the dangers of this chemical and seafood: http://documents.foodandwaterwatch.org/doc/stpp.pdf

[xStatic]

Not sure of this is possible but it might be a good idea to update the care sheet on here with some additional information on feeding fish. Other than advising not to feed fish containing thiaminase, there is no information about feeding frozen/packaged fish to your snakes. It seems to be a very confusing topic and obviously there are many on this site alone who aren't 100% sure or in agreement about what to do with fish. Feeding silversides seems to be very common on this forum, so either many people are unaware of the risks posed by this brand of frozen silversides, or any fear of feeding these has been blown out of proportion. If packaged fish can be deadly to snakes I think it is very important this information be added to a care sheet. The sticky thread has been very helpful but I'm worried this information has come too late for many people. I'm not sure if one meal of packaged fish could kill my snake but I know I would be devistated if it did, and I would like to think I don't fall under the category of "questionable keeper."

[Sonya610]

I agree, it should be on the care sheet. I was here for a while before I heard about the seizure/sudden death risk associated with young garters and heavy fish diets. Someone on another thread just said the young babies should have a MOSTLY fish diet. Also note this chemical is often NOT listed on the package.

I just went through my freezer and found the old silversides "Made in China"....it wasn't Sally's it was OceanNutrition. I wouldn't assume for one moment they aren't coming from the same Chinese vendor/processor despite the tradename.

[kibakiba]

Sally's silversides do not cause seizures if that's what you're saying. Other brands might, you have to pay attention to the ingredients.

[Sonya610]

Sally's silversides do not cause seizures if that's what you're saying. Other brands might, you have to pay attention to the ingredients.

The chemical is often not listed in the ingredients. If it comes from China the ingredients label doesn't even matter. Do you think there would be a national recall of pet food silversides if a reptile was found to have died as a result? You know...after the autopsy and investigation....it would make the national news and the feds would get involved and new legislation enforced regarding of labeling reptile/fish food (even though they don't require it for human consumption) and such?

[xStatic]

The chemical is often not listed in the ingredients. If it comes from China the ingredients label doesn't even matter. Do you think there would be a national recall of pet food silversides if a reptile was found to have died as a result? You know...after the autopsy and investigation....it would make the national news and the feds would get involved and new legislation enforced regarding of labeling reptile/fish food (even though they don't require it for human consumption) and such?

I respect and understand your concern, but I do feel doubtful about the silversides because so many people feed them on here without any problems. However I think I'm just going to avoid fish for right now... It's not worth the hassle and worrying about contamination. I checked the package and the tilapia I have only says "fish (tilapia)" in the ingredients, but I would rather not risk it at this point. I will stick to a rodent diet and supplement it with worms...

[kibakiba]

I don't believe they do come from china. Just look at the container they come it, it'll tell you if they do,. I've never bought them. but NO ONE has had an issue with sally's. Everyone who uses them recommends them, so I think that says something, now doesn't it?

[xStatic]

I don't believe they do come from china. Just look at the container they come it, it'll tell you if they do,. I've never bought them. but NO ONE has had an issue with sally's. Everyone who uses them recommends them, so I think that says something, now doesn't it?

I think so too, at least with this brand. Maybe other brands of silversides do and will cause seizures, but this brand obviously doesn't or else there would be more posts on this site talking about Sally's silversides killing their snakes. Either way this whole fish poisoning thing is a little bit ridiculous. I trust this brand is safe but I'm not going to get myself mixed up in feeding fish at the moment. It's far too stressful for me :)

[kibakiba]

My response was to Sonya.

And I appologize for the hit of snark in all of my posts, it's that time of the month, and I live with a very stupid woman.

[Sonya610]

Okay regarding Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand....their website looks legit. I am sure a phone call tomorrow can settle the speculation regarding where they buy their product and if chemicals are used. I will report back. The founders/current president is a German, named Schmidt, so that makes me suspect they are legit, but not at all sure as well...just not sure...will report back tomorrow. My gut says China but we shall see.

Tropical fish food, Sand Eels, Bloodworms, Beef heart and Natural Formulated Diets San Francisco. (http://www.sfbb.com/about.php)

[Invisible Snake]

This is an old thread discussing silversides, hope it helps. http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/5408-smelt-silversides.html

[kibakiba]

People have done it before. They freeze them in water without chemicals, that is what people have said. There are many many threads on them. I don't see why you are that skeptical, considering hundreds of users have used them without any problems. Do you think your case is any different from theirs, that the one package you buy is going to be different and filled with chemicals?

[d_virginiana]

I just bought a pack of PetSmart silversides. I happened to see them and thought I'd give it a try since my new baby hasn't been converted to pinkies yet... Even though I realize it's probably a very low possibility given how many people use them I still with no problems, I still get paranoid.

[Sonya610]

People have done it before. They freeze them in water without chemicals, that is what people have said.

Uhhh...what? They freeze them in water without chemicals? What in the heck is that supposed to mean? Look...you may be pms'ing...and maybe I am too. Your statements... you have never bought them, never seen the package, but claim they freeze them in "chemical free water" (not at all sure why they would freeze fish in water, some sort of euthanasia thing after they net them out of the ocean?).

Caution...otherwise Stefan is going to have to step in and clean up this thread when it becomes unpleasant, and it is very close to becoming unpleasant.

I said I would call tomorrow, and I will, and then I will report back.

[kibakiba]

I'm basing it off what people have said. You are not the only person to call the company. You do know you don't even have to respond to my posts, right? They freeze them in water to keep them fresher and prevent freezer burn.

[Sonya610]

I'm basing it off what people have said. You are not the only person to call the company. You do know you don't even have to respond to my posts, right? They freeze them in water to keep them fresher and prevent freezer burn.

People have said....okay then. People have called the company too? Which people? And yes I know I don't have to respond to your posts, but I don't give a "free pass" like most others here do. You addressed my posts and in return I respond.

So yeah maybe this Schmidt running the Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand company is running his own ships out of the San Fran Bay to collect this fine organic chemical free reptile/fish food. Maybe his staff is ensuring they are frozen in "chemical free water".

Maybe he is....anything is possible.

[Sonya610]

Okay I made some calls and had limited success.

First Vendor: Rain Forest Aquaculture, the Tilapia aqua farms based in Costa Rica. Called their Florida office and quickly realized English is not their preferred language (unless of course you are going to spend money). The girl told me to "send an email" and they will get back to me. Yeah right, I don't expect a response, perhaps I will send another email saying I want to purchase and then they will reply.

Second Vendor: ClearSprings Trout Farm in Idaho. Good news here, receptionist asked someone else and immediately told me the Trout fillets/whole fish do not get treated with STPP, but implied the "specialty" fish does (Specialty apparently refers to breaded prepared frozen trout).

Third Vendor: Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand. A sales rep told me they do buy the silversides from suppliers in Asia, when I asked about STPP she had no clue what I was talking about and transferred me to some guy named Sumit (who didn't pick up his phone). I called back and also got the buyers name and I would think he could answer the question.

Worrisome thing about Sodium Tripolyphosphate labeling is that growers/processors do NOT just use it as a preservative. If the fish is soaked in water and then soaked in a vat of STPP (yes, a vat, that appears to be the method of application) it can add at least 20% more weight to the fish. Shady Asian suppliers that want to make mo' money could easily decide to treat their 1000 lbs of fish with it and suddenly be able to sell 1200 or 1400 lbs instead! A whole lot of Asian countries have little or no oversight hence the lethal toxic pet food and lethal baby food scandals.

[xStatic]

Okay I made some calls and had limited success.

First Vendor: Rain Forest Aquaculture, the Tilapia aqua farms based in Costa Rica. Called their Florida office and quickly realized English is not their preferred language (unless of course you are going to spend money). The girl told me to "send an email" and they will get back to me. Yeah right, I don't expect a response, perhaps I will send another email saying I want to purchase and then they will reply.

Second Vendor: ClearSprings Trout Farm in Idaho. Good news here, receptionist asked someone else and immediately told me the Trout fillets/whole fish do not get treated with STPP, but implied the "specialty" fish does (Specialty apparently refers to breaded prepared frozen trout).

Third Vendor: Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand. A sales rep told me they do buy the silversides from suppliers in Asia, when I asked about STPP she had no clue what I was talking about and transferred me to some guy named Sumit (who didn't pick up his phone). I called back and also got the buyers name and I would think he could answer the question.

Worrisome thing about Sodium Tripolyphosphate labeling is that growers/processors do NOT just use it as a preservative. If the fish is soaked in water and then soaked in a vat of STPP (yes, a vat, that appears to be the method of application) it can add at least 20% more weight to the fish. Shady Asian suppliers that want to make mo' money could easily decide to treat their 1000 lbs of fish with it and suddenly be able to sell 1200 or 1400 lbs instead! A whole lot of Asian countries have little or no oversight hence the lethal toxic pet food and lethal baby food scandals.

I'm sure all of this is true, especially the fish intended for human consumption, but I don't think there is any reason to not feed "Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand" since such a great number of reputable people on this site have been feeding this specific brand of fish for a long time. If these fish were toxic we would be seeing a lot more snakes dying.

I'm not trying to minimize the issue or say that it isn't an issue, but it probably isn't worth freaking a whole bunch of people out by saying that Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand silversides are probably treated with STPP because they are packaged in Asia. The evidence from keepers on this forum shows that this brand is safe to feed to your snakes.

Many products you use/consume are produced/packaged in Asia, and the average person probably doesn't take notice of this fact. It's true that goods imported from Asia have been known to contain harmful substances or be faulty, but I think the rate of these incidents are blown out of proportion by the media. It's not fair to automatically make the assumption that any product being imported from Asia is contaminated with harmful chemicals or is junk.

I have a lot of respect for the amount of care and compassion you have for your pets. However I think this situation was blown into something it didn't need to be. Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand silversides should be OK for keepers to feed to their snakes as has been demonstrated by owners on this site. You might also want reconsider whether phrases such as "Shady Asian suppliers that want to make mo' money..." could be hurtful to people who may belong to certain racial, social, religious, etc. groups.

[ConcinusMan]

Okay regarding Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand....their website looks legit. I am sure a phone call tomorrow can settle the speculation regarding where they buy their product and if chemicals are used. I will report back. The founders/current president is a German, named Schmidt, so that makes me suspect they are legit, but not at all sure as well...just not sure...will report back tomorrow. My gut says China but we shall see.

Tropical fish food, Sand Eels, Bloodworms, Beef heart and Natural Formulated Diets San Francisco. (http://www.sfbb.com/about.php)

Been through this already, long ago. I thought this had been put to rest, or I would have saved their emails to me. There's no dang chemicals in the fish. It wouldn't do them much good to sell these as fish food, if the food killed your fish, now would it?

It's safe to use as aquarium fish food. It isn't going to hurt your snakes. It's fish, and water. That's it.

[kibakiba]

Finally some other people chime in. Thank you Richard.

[ConcinusMan]

Uhhh...what? They freeze them in water without chemicals? What in the heck is that supposed to mean?

Why is that such a struggle for you? It's simple. It means they freeze them in water without chemicals. :rolleyes:

But to elaborate, they rinse the fish in fresh clean water, pack them in water, and flash freeze. Being encased in water protects them from freezer burn/drying. Other brands vacuum seal them dry so they don't keep as well.


some sort of euthanasia thing after they net them out of the ocean?.

They are kept alive until the moment they are flash frozen. Flash freezing is your euthanasia. They go from swimming around, to frozen solid, in an instant. I'm sure they don't feel a thing.

And BTW, They don't live in the ocean. They live in shallow salt water pools on shore, in the Arctic/subarctic regions of the world.

STPP or any type of phosphates would render the fish useless for use as aquarium fish food. They don't use these chemicals or anything else that would pollute your aquarium. Chemicals are used to keep food visually appealing and fresh for human consumption. Aquarium fish couldn't care less if the food is fresh, or visually appealing.

[mb90078]

The hysteria here is staggering. It would make complete sense if there were a lot of mysterious deaths of animals fed primarily or only silversides...but it's quite the opposite in fact. Those who feed silversides predominately or only seem to have extremely good results. When you consider how many people use this item as a primary food source, and how many people have raised babies, etc., it is ridiculous to become hysterical about the fact that this brand (Sally's) is harmful. Then add in the people who use them as an occasional food source as well...

To be clear, I'm fine with a healthy investigation of facts, but to suggest that everyone stop using them, and make a note suggesting such in the caresheet is absurd. We could raise such hysteria over just about any food source, I'm quite confident.

Let me bring it a step further, and even suggest that the packaged frozen fish intended for human consumption are probably more often than not going to cause death. Let me be painfully clear, I AM NOT ENDORSING THE USE OF THEM, but again, if they were as toxic as the hysteria suggests, deaths would be much more common. From what I gather, it seems like there were a couple bad batches on a couple instances. Reason enough to find a better food source? Absolutely. But to think that your snake is automatically going to die because it ate packaged frozen fish intended for human consumption? To me, absurd.

[ConcinusMan]

If it's for human consumption especially, then simply read the ingredients. I've never had an issue with packages such as tilapia for example, that list as the ingredients "tilapia fillet, water" :cool:

I think that deaths due to preservatives mainly occur when one does not bother to check the ingredients, or when the fish is purchased thawed at the "fresh" seafood counter and contains or was processed with additives. Even the fresh stuff can be checked. They keep a list in the back and you can see it upon request. If there's any preservatives or color added, if it's farmed or WC, mercury and PCB content, the source, you name it, all that information is available. You just have to ask for it.

[Sonya610]

STPP or any type of phosphates would render the fish useless for use as aquarium fish food. They don't use these chemicals or anything else that would pollute your aquarium. Chemicals are used to keep food visually appealing and fresh for human consumption. Aquarium fish couldn't care less if the food is fresh, or visually appealing.

Yeah I thought so too but if you research the chemical and aquariums you will discover it is NOT uncommon to read about aquarium owners feeding shrimp they buy at the grocery store (and shrimp is one of the most heavily treated items), frozen or otherwise. Sometimes people ask what STPP is, but from the threads I saw most didn't seem to know what it is and plenty of them appear to be throwing it in their tanks. If it was immediately wiping out whole tankfuls of expensive fish the aquarium keepers probably would have figured that out and it would now be common knowledge in their world.

I came across one site that specializes in selling fish as feeders and they claimed they were careful to wash off the grocery store fish so it could be fed to aquarium fish! "Providing your saltwater aquariums with the finest foods! All ingredients go through an extensive rinsing process to rid our food of the STTP (sodium tripolyphosphate) that many of the freshest seafoods are initially preserved with." ROD'S FOOD -Providing your salt water aquarium with the finest food. (http://www.rodsfood.com/about.html)

And if you read my previous comment you would realize it is NOT just a preservative, it is often used by unscrupulous foreign fish processors to significantly increase the weight of the fish which increase profit. I would not trust any food item coming out of many Asian countries, especially China.

[mb90078]

Let me bring it a step further, and even suggest that the packaged frozen fish intended for human consumption are probably more often than not going to cause death.

I should have had another "not" in there. Actually, I should've phrased it a lot better than I did. (In most situations, feeding frozen packaged fish intended for human consumption will probably not result in a garter's death if ingested.)

[ConcinusMan]

Finally some other people chime in. Thank you Richard.

Let me make something perfectly clear. I don't know what was going on between you two and I don't care. I wasn't here to "take sides".

It has been well established that SF bay brand "Sally's" silversides are safe for snakes, lizards, turtles, carnivorous aquarium fish, trolls living in your crawlspace, the neighbors cat... well, you get the idea. They've been around for quite some time.

Now, if someone is using these fish as a staple, and everyone using them is experiencing some common bad reactions or deaths, there's no reason to suspect they're not good pet food, for garters or otherwise.

I could tell you that hot dogs cause butt cancer but I highly doubt that everyone will quit eating hot dogs. I also highly doubt that everyone who eats hot dogs will get butt cancer.

'nuff's enough. Sally's are good food for garters.

[kibakiba]

I wasn't saying you were taking sides. What even made you think that? She obviously needed someone who has used sally's to tell her, because I sure haven't. Assuming I thought you were taking 'my side' is just stupid.

[ConcinusMan]

Now, if someone is using these fish as a staple, and everyone using them is experiencing some common bad reactions or deaths, there's probably reason to suspect they're not good pet food, for garters or otherwise.

Now, I'm getting a bit too tired to care. Time for bed. If I told you how much sleep I got in the past 9 days you wouldn't believe me. It amazes me that I'm still functioning and reasoning at all. Two nights totaling 20 hours just isn't cutting it.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I DO fish for my own trout... there are currently quite a few in my freezer!

lol, I was trying to find the list of safe fish when I found this thread...I can only catch trout by tickling, my step dad taught me when I was young, but I think it might be classed as poaching now!

[guidofatherof5]

Bump. Good thread.

[NickB]

lol, I was trying to find the list of safe fish when I found this thread...I can only catch trout by tickling, my step dad taught me when I was young, but I think it might be classed as poaching now!

Have you read Johnny Kingdom - A Wild Life on Exmoor? He spent many of his younger years tickling trout, great book very funny and entertaining.


Bump. Good thread.

Good Bump ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Do they giggle when U tickle them?

[Natrix]

Having read this post I too have been feeding frozen Salmon not thinking to check the ingredients? just checked the packet and it says that it only contains Salmon (Fish) and protective ice glaze (Water) 9016 I can only assume it is safe to use :confused: Asda is owned by Wal-mart.

[infernalis]

Having read this post I too have been feeding frozen Salmon not thinking to check the ingredients? just checked the packet and it says that it only contains Salmon (Fish) and protective ice glaze (Water) 9016 I can only assume it is safe to use :confused: Asda is owned by Wal-mart.

Good stuff there. By law the Sodium Tripolyphosphate is required to be listed if it's used. Can you show us the whole package? so others can buy some.

Thanks for posting.

[Natrix]

Good stuff there. By law the Sodium Tripolyphosphate is required to be listed if it's used. Can you show us the whole package? so others can buy some.

Thanks for posting.
Here you go Guys! Hope this is of some use to you ;) 9017 There is usually 4-6 pieces of Salmon steaks in each packet. Sometimes they are individually wrapped but mostly they are just loose in the packet.

[ConcinusMan]

Huh... when I buy Salmon it generally comes like this: ;)

http://www.prevention.com/sites/default/files/images/news/featured_images/Fish%20628x363.jpg?1370375963

Year 'round we got whole farmed coho and rainbow trout/Steelhead and seasonally we get whole Wild Alaskan and WA Chinook and other species. Of course you can buy just fillet too but only certain ones. Every spring all the stores around Centralia/Chehalis WA have huge metal tubs sitting outside full of ice and locally caught wild salmon. Tons of it. So much that the price drops like a lead balloon and literally everyone is selling it. Not really much call for packaged stuff but they do have a little especially in winter and it's generally cheaper than fresh.


Having read this post I too have been feeding frozen Salmon not thinking to check the ingredients? just checked the packet and it says that it only contains Salmon (Fish) and protective ice glaze (Water) 9016 I can only assume it is safe to use :confused: Asda is owned by Wal-mart.

Yeah it's just fish and water but what kind/locale salmon is it? The answer makes a big difference in the levels of heavy metals/PCB's which is present in nearly all salmon so "safe" is a relative term. Unless it's Wild Alaskan, it's really not safe for anyone to eat 10 servings a month. I can't believe they even still sell/eat Atlantic salmon it's so contaminated. If you compare prices of different salmon (and many fish in general) it's a pretty safe bet that the highest priced ones are the cleanest and the lowest is barely safe to eat 8oz a month.

[Natrix]

Huh... when I buy Salmon it generally comes like this: ;)

http://www.prevention.com/sites/default/files/images/news/featured_images/Fish%20628x363.jpg?1370375963

Year 'round we got whole farmed coho and rainbow trout/Steelhead and seasonally we get whole Wild Alaskan and WA Chinook and other species. Of course you can buy just fillet too but only certain ones. Every spring all the stores around Centralia/Chehalis WA have huge metal tubs sitting outside full of ice and locally caught wild salmon. Tons of it. So much that the price drops like a lead balloon and literally everyone is selling it. Not really much call for packaged stuff but they do have a little especially in winter and it's generally cheaper than fresh.



Yeah it's just fish and water but what kind/locale salmon is it? The answer makes a big difference in the levels of heavy metals/PCB's which is present in nearly all salmon so "safe" is a relative term. Unless it's Wild Alaskan, it's really not safe for anyone to eat 10 servings a month. I can't believe they even still sell/eat Atlantic salmon it's so contaminated. If you compare prices of different salmon (and many fish in general) it's a pretty safe bet that the highest priced ones are the cleanest and the lowest is barely safe to eat 8oz a month.
Yet another reason to emigrate over there from this horrible country.

[chris-uk]

Unless it's Wild Alaskan, it's really not safe for anyone to eat 10 servings a month.

Wild Alaskan isn't going to be easy to get on this side of the pond, but Scottish salmon/trout doesn't have dangerous levels of anything harmful.

[Foxrun402]

What if it says this?
http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o774/foxrun402/temporary_zps57e55421.jpg (http://s1342.photobucket.com/user/foxrun402/media/temporary_zps57e55421.jpg.html)

Would that be the same as using Sodium Tripolyphosphate? or would it be safe?

Edit... Research says:

Carbon monoxide-treated fish is safe to eat, but the treatment does deprive consumers of visual cues about the freshness and handling of the seafood they’re buying. And that could be especially important when the fish comes from China, where aquaculture is poorly regulated.

While it is illegal to sell fish treated with carbon monoxide in the European Union, it is permissible in the United States. Consumer groups and producers of genuinely fresh tilapia filets, generally farmed in Latin America, object to the practice, saying it is deceptive.
It is unclear how much of what appears to be fresh tilapia on American fish counters was previously frozen. Chinese fish farms say they treat frozen fish with carbon monoxide because American importers request it, although there is a move to ban the practice.


Probably best to not feed it to them...

[chris-uk]

The carbon monoxide treatment shouldn't be harmful. More significant on that pack would be the country of origin.

[Foxrun402]

China... so may as well not buy it then? Lol

[guidofatherof5]

China... so may as well not buy it then? Lol

I would say DON'T BUY!

[ConcinusMan]

China... so may as well not buy it then? Lol

Tell me about it.:rolleyes: I will never knowingly eat anything that's ever been in China, let alone produced there.

You mean to tell me you can't get decent tilapia where you are Jonathan? It's everywhere here except walmart. Their stuff isn't fresh and is usually laced with preservatives but just about anyone else has fresh tilapia produced in the U.S. or Mexico. I get 12 oz which is enough for all my snakes to get a meal, for just over $4 and the fillets are vacuum sealed individually and ingredients say "Tilapia and water" although I don't see any extra water, just moist fillets. Any store owned by Kroger should have them. I get them at Fred Meyer.

If they have to use CO to keep the color, the stuff's probably older than I am LoL

[guidofatherof5]

Jonathan, you have 3 Hy-Vee stores in Lincoln. I get my tilapia at my local Hy-Vee. Just a note, pick the fillets you want. They keep it too long in the hopes it will sell. If it looks greyish or looks slimy, don't buy it.

6001 Village Dr.
Lincoln

5020 N 27th St
Lincoln

1601 N 84th St
Lincoln

[ConcinusMan]

If it looks greyish or looks slimy, don't buy it.


Or tell them what it's for and do buy it but insist on half price. I really don't think it matters to the snakes. Just freeze it immediately and mark it for snakes only. Seasonally, sometimes I go around to several places and get the fins and scrap free. Plenty of good meat on some of it and the snakes don't care even if it's on the verge of spoiling. I see them eating rotten fish all the time in the wild. Some fishermen leave scrap on the bank in Centralia and I walk up to find a dozen pugets eating that rotten stuff when the smell of it makes me gag.

[guidofatherof5]

Or tell them what it's for and do buy it but insist on half price. I really don't think it matters to the snakes. Just freeze it immediately and mark it for snakes only. Seasonally, sometimes I go around to several places and get the fins and scrap free. Plenty of good meat on some of it and the snakes don't care even if it's on the verge of spoiling. I see them eating rotten fish all the time in the wild. Some fishermen leave scrap on the bank in Centralia and I walk up to find a dozen pugets eating that rotten stuff when the smell of it makes me gag.

You are right Richard. I was thinking more about me handling/smelling it when I cut it up. :eek:

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I wouldnt feed them rotten fish for the simple fact that it smells pretty much the same when it comes out the other end, but it definitely won't hurt them. If your tilapia is fresh it will be nice and white (except for a darker stripe where the spine(?) was) and it definitely won't be slimy and has a barely detectable fish smell. Shouldn't smell strong, be dark, or be slimy. just wet.